World of Darkness: Gotham - A Classic World of Darkness Chat

[Blue Fox]

Endorsements from people who registered today and have written exactly one post, telling me how great this PbP is?! Why on earth wouldn't I be convinced?

Just because you have 64 posts doesn't make you any more "real person" than I am at these forums Loxo. Its just a number showing how active in posting you are.

More on topic:

WoD Gotham is a gaming community About cWoD but its not for everyone interested in cWoD. Were not interested in people who hang around for a month maybe two and then leave ofr greener pastures. What we're looking for are people who are willing to commit for long term and are willing to accept the same houserules and setting everyone else have. No exceptions.

If you don't like it, then its probably not for you. -Sure the wording on our Wiki is a bit harsh but it has kept the trolls, drama queens and layabouts out.

As far as gaming experience goes... after playing for more than a year I can say that it has been very different from my usual online gaming experience -in a good way; I actually get to play in a regular & consistent character tailored storyline instead of having just another WoD-Cafe experience with random events thrown in the mix.

[Rose Bailey]

Alright, at this point this is starting to look like cross-site drama. Everybody, please stand down from arguing over the merits or flaws of Gotham's chats or wiki.

If you believe another poster has breached the forum rules, please use the Flag button to report the post, rather than engaging them in the thread.

Thank you.

EDIT: My original post was perhaps overly broad. Here are clearer bullets.

- If you think someone's using multiple accounts or spamming, that's a rules violation, so it should be reported with the report feature. We checked the admin tools and don't believe we have to close any accounts.

- Sites running play-by-post, chat, or whatever are welcome to start a thread in the Gatherings forum to advertise their game. This is not a violation of the rules unless it gets spammy or unless the advertisement itself violates the rules.

- It would be ludicrous for Onyx Path to attempt to regulate games not run on our site. While advertisements need to conform to the forum rules, what people do in their private games has nothing to do with us and is not report material.

- People are generally welcome to post their positive experiences with a game. Again, it needs to not be spam and not be rules-violating. Nothing here is either of those things.

- This specific argument, over the tone of Gotham's wiki or anything going on on their message boards or chats, isn't okay. We're not going to make a bright-line rule that says that you're never allowed to discuss content on another site, because that would be silly. However, the Gatherings forum is not a place to critique other sites or games, and the forums as a whole are not a place to critique other communities.

[Midgard]

Its a play per chat not a PbP, I for one am new to this forum but I am not new to WoDGotham, I been around it since pretty much it opened up.

I enjoy their tone, I enjoy the effort they put into the wiki and the completeness they have in the setting, something you lack in many sites nowadays. As for the tone of said wiki? I like it, far to often have I met people who cant make their character a personality but rather a snowflake that is special due to its powers or unique special specialness, these people are usually the ones complaining about the snowflake comment. For those who enjoy creating a living breathing character which is person reflected by an extensive and fleshed out sheet with a background its not really an issue.
WoDGotham is to me a complete setting and its well managed, its ticket system and other functions allows you to maintain your character and handle downtime efficiently, and get in touch with STs without them having to be online at the time you write it.
Its also a quite deadly place to be, PVP is active (no everyone isnt trying to off everyone else, but if you mess up you probably getting fucked somehow), the NPC and enviroment isnt passive, it reacts to your in game actions.
Another thing I like alot is the rulings and avoidance of metagaming. Due to not using venue specific icons, and having policies against talking about your character, everyone is on an equal level, anyone can be a mortal, vampire, mage or werewolf and interact without knowing what the other people are. It broadens the players you can play with and removes icon hunting completely.

I enjoy the game greatly and I hope you guys will as well.

[HammerofHeaven]

How it could be worded to make this easier for yourselves:

"Hi Perspective new player!
Welcome to our forum, we have a wonderful crew of ST's and Players who are all working hard to make the World of Darkness both feel 'realistic' and for continuity to flow well. As such, We reserve the right to say no to any "uncommon" or "extremely rare" template/application. This insures that not only do we have a viable, and fun 'World of Darkness' but that our long time players do not feel cheated for not being allowed to play some of the more obscure breeds/clans/kiths/traditions. We apologize for this inconvenience, but this is a hard 'No' on obscure templates. If you'd like to discuss how to bring your character into line with our character creation requirements, please email the moderator/ST for your chosen group, and they'll be happy to assist you. -- Thank you, the staff of Gotham"

See? a courteous, and inviting message with none of the vitriol. also, it increases new player/ST communication, and allows ST's a greater hand in the creation of characters for the game, which leads to less rejected applications in the long run.

[jellybean]

Top ten reasons I play on Gotham...

10. It's fresh, different, and intelligent. They have taken the old games and the old settings and the old themes and updated them while still keeping to the spirit of cWoD. It makes the game more interesting and compelling - relevant to today and not the late 90s or 00s.

9. Awesome Character Creation and vetting. It's rigorous and separates the wheat from the chaff fast. I got a lot of ST attention through the process and they helped me create a character that was easily plugged into the major stories right away which was more important to me than to have my favorite character type.

8. It stays true to the assertion that it's a serious game with mature themes. It's a dark World of Darkness. It's not sometimes the World of Darkness and sometimes the World of Sparklies.

7. It's brutal. There are consequences for character actions. STs don't water the consequences down in fear of someone throwing a hissy fit

6. It's rewarding. Even though the game is brutal, if you put your character out there and do well you can achieve a lot. Who doesn't love minions?!

5. The Staff is dedicated and on top of things. From what I've seen the staff is small, but very active. They keep the place running smooth with no disruptions. They are available for scenes a lot and are eager to keep players engaged. Awesome story content. Their stories are original and complex. It's not the usual dungeon crawl or monster flavor of the month crap.

4. Great players and characters. The players I meet have compelling characters that are fun to interact with and most of them know how to play off other players well and stir things up.

3. There are no cliques. I can say that all of us work hard to include people right away. How else will the Collective thrive?

2. Amazing freedom of movement. The game has by far the most impressive and efficient tools for moving around and affecting the setting that I have ever seen. Other games I've played have done most things through forums and if you ask a ST to help you pull off something sneaky, they are limited in what they can and will do. Response time can be a trick too. In Gotham there are amazing features which help me pull things off I couldn't do anywhere else with my character. It's all done through automated systems that help resolve issues quickly and keep plots moving along. I scarcely can keep up with all that's going on because the STs are so attentive and turn around responses within hours and not days.

And the number one reason I play on Gotham....

1. I get to relax after work and role play with grown ups and no OOC drama.

[JimB]

Nowhere did I say it's the only way.

Ah, yes, you did use the word "often." My apologies (and I mean that sincerely, despite what's to follow) for misinterpreting you; I was so annoyed by your lack of qualifiers defining all people as needing such treatment that I failed to notice you did at least qualify we only need those statements more than half the time.

Well, I happen to play on the site in question and have to say when I joined the game nine months ago I really didn't give much thought to the insulting comments that are being referred to. I spent a day looking over the Wiki and absorbing a message that felt right for me.

To each his own. Let it be clear that I have nothing to say, negative or positive, about the site or its community. I've never been and have no experience with either. I am only criticizing the sales pitch the site makes to try to attract newcomers, and how I find it makes me feel leery rather than welcome. The staff, or at least its representative, seems committed to maintaining that first impression, which is its right, and if that works for the game's community, then that's fine.

[Ashton]

Well, I happen to play on the site in question and have to say when I joined the game nine months ago I really didn't give much thought to the insulting comments that are being referred to. I spent a day looking over the Wiki and absorbing a message that felt right for me. I've been playing World of Darkness since the very first edition. I've run chats, I've played in chats, and I know how people can be and how things can develop in on line communities. Over time, you can try the nice polite approach, and then go harsher when that doesn't work, and then even harsher and hope that people will finally read and understand. The sad thing is, people still don't read or think the rules don't apply to them and want to by pass the system.

Opinions and thoughtful criticism is certainly welcome and could indeed lead to a shift in the way certain things were phrased. The question is though, would it make a difference? Would those who take offense to the stated restrictions or nature of the game change their opinion based on that? Would you be one of the people that only want to play in a game if they allowed X, Y, or Z character type? I wanted a game that I could take seriously, and not be surrounded by drama and test a few boundaries. I found that in spades. The game might not have hordes of players in it, but as JO stated, we prefer quality and substance over cookie cutter and snowflakes. No one is saying there isn't a place for those types of characters in games. The site Owner and Staff just feel that it is not what they want in their game. It is good that people read the message and take from it what they do, if the message resonates with you and you want to give it a try then that is a good thing. If it doesn't, than that is fine too and at least you can move on and find the type of place you want if you haven't already.

I for one am glad that I gave the game a chance.

Thanks for your time

[HammerofHeaven]

wait wait..I'm "overly sensitive" because I don't like being insulted even as I'm reading the information? LOL okay. I'm sure your "Quality players" are a joy to be around. Good job.

[Jinxed Oracle]

@JimB:

the insistence that it's the only was to get it through my head (and you are talking about my head, since you say it's for all people) indicates a low opinion of me that I wouldn't want to put up with in game.

Please don't misquote me. No where did I say it's the only way. I said often times it is the most effective way to make a point. Also earlier in my statement I spoke about the majority of players who find such statements offensive. Those are who this is directed at. If you feel attacked, then it isn't our intention or fault.

@Luxosceles: Your opinion is noted, even if it is a bit hypocritical with the hinted rudeness. The simple fact is: We have gained quality players who understand the themes and goals of the game, who wish to create complex characters within the setting without the need for demanding special attention, all through the many areas we advertise. They work within the scope of the game and the room for in game growth is massive. We have a strong dedicated community. We will add to that list and those who have no desire to be here will find somewhere else to go.

@NFI: At the current time, sorry, the Camarilla is the only sect of Vampires playable.

@Octavo: On the opposite side of that coin: The entire ending statement of that article states that the game is the gaming group's to do with as they please. It may not be what others would do, or even what the developers of the game would have chosen, but it is the game we choose.

@Chaostrophy: I look forward to seeing you in the chat, sir.

To everyone: We make our opinions about "snowflake" characters very clear from the get-go because it saves the Storytellers time and effort in the Proposal section of character approval. Otherwise everyone would want to be the one exception to the rule. It's the nature of the beast.

The Owners and Staff have been in the community for many, many years. They've seen what happens when expectations aren't firmly set. They know all too well what happens when exceptions are made to the rules for preferential players and those who nag and complain. It's unfair to Storytellers to have to explain away why snowflake characters are in the game world and fashion stories for them because their time is not infinite and must be conserved and pooled to the greatest effect. It's unfair to other players because they must strain to rationalize why some Storyteller favorite or whiner got to play some outlandish character type not in the scope of the setting and deal with the consequences. Quality players understand this and thank us for preserving some sense of sanity which is why we embarked on the project in the first place. To have an oasis in the sea of self-absorbed entitled petty crap we kept seeing over and over again online. They seek to work with us and the community, not rail against it like petulant children being told that they can't have their favorite sweet at the supermarket and must make do with another treat.

In the end, we have a firm scope that's manageable to our game. We state it clearly and are unapologetic for it. We even explain why. The fact that this is lost on some voices here on the forum is unfortunate, but then they area all free to go elsewhere. Better still, they can endeavor to fund their own sites, create their own games and run it for themselves. Put your own time and effort on the line and create your vision.

Finally to all the others out there, we are a friendly, pleasant, and supportive community but we have our standards and our expectations. The players of our community share in these or else they wouldn't be there. To those high quality players who don't take insult to broadly issued statements, we welcome you and our Staff will strive to give you powerful stories and allow your character to grow and evolve. To those who do take insult, this is not the game for you.

[Chaostrophy]

The harsh phrasing didn't disturb or offend me, I can see the possible reasons behind them (though I've only read the Werewolf parts).

I'm during the concept write-up phase, I hope I'll get to play soon. The only thing I'm worried about is the technical part (I've never used a wiki format or played a chat-based game before and my IRL "computers knowledge" is rather... horrible). I'm also sorry to see you don't do prelude games any more.

[Octavo]

Snowflakes have no place in our setting and we make it very clear. Through the time we've been established and accepting players, the majority of those who do find sublet commentaries, such as the ones you addressed, insulting are those who would wish to disobey them. Snowflakes ruin games. We will not budge from this and stating it in a straightforward, perhaps harsh manner, is often the only way to get through the heads of people.

I think it's more important for a game to be welcoming to new players than it is for it to be without "snowflakes."

Werewolf: the Apocalypse lead dev, Stew Wilson, posted a well written counterpoint to this kind of game design.

http://theonyxpath.com/the-end-of-sc...e-game-design/

[NFI]

Everything was looking good for me, warnings included - if anything, the harsh weeding out of the overly-sensitive, desperately "special" was only added appeal. But then I saw Camarilla only and I lost all interest.

[JimB]

For all it's worth, I'm not offended, but I personally wouldn't end up playing a game that seems to take such an antagonistic stance right off the bat. The repeated use of an insulting term and the insistence that it's the only was to get it through my head (and you are talking about my head, since you say it's for all people) indicates a low opinion of me that I wouldn't want to put up with in game.

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, but just giving you my input so you can decide what to do with it as regards your approach to players. If you decide to keep your current approach, hey, no skin off my ass.

[Jinxed Oracle]

@ Demon Cat: Apologies.

@HammerofHeaven: There will be some who are offended by frank comments about our policies involving snowflakes. Snowflakes have no place in our setting and we make it very clear. Through the time we've been established and accepting players, the majority of those who do find sublet commentaries, such as the ones you addressed, insulting are those who would wish to disobey them. Snowflakes ruin games. We will not budge from this and stating it in a straightforward, perhaps harsh manner, is often the only way to get through the heads of people.

[Demon Cat]

Topic moved to "Gatherings"

Enjoy your Gotham game, I hope it goes well