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i need to ask something. (Highly-controversial topic. Please be patient with me)

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  • i need to ask something. (Highly-controversial topic. Please be patient with me)

    Okay,i need to vent a bit and if any of you guys could answer that'd be fine. So, all cards on the table. I'm anti-abortion. i tried not to be but the truth is. When i see an abortion,i see a little kind being thrown in thrash-bin. I see . My country,Brazil, had some reviews our laws this week. it was bad,but one law i do agree with is the Criminizalition of abortion unless the pregnancy directs threatens the woman's life. It is hard for me seeing so many people railing against politicians who voted for that. Especially because those people didnt attack politicians who did worse. And it's hard for me to understand something about pro-choice people. Why do you think people who are against abortion are just trying to hurt women? every single pro-choice argument i've sen always says "you don't care about women,You just want to hurt women". And that's just isn't the reality. Based on my experiences almost all pro-life people are coming from the same idea. That a fetus is a human being, or at the very least will become a human being and that we shouldn't let people just thrown them away like that. I'm still trying to understand pro-choice to empathize with them. that's why i'm asking this here,please be patient with.

    Why is there a belief that pro-life people about trying to hurt woman and not about saving lifes, or at the very least things that will be alive after some months?
    Last edited by Nicolas Milioni; 12-01-2016, 02:33 PM.

  • #2
    Because if there aren't god-tier adoption services available, free medical care for the woman while she's pregnant to assist with the pregnancy and delivery, and post-natal care for both the woman, child, and father to ensure that an unwanted pregnancy won't disrupt their lives too much, and strong social services for families with young children, and laws against rapists getting parental rights, then anybody who claims they're pro-life stinks of hypocrisy to me. At that point you're just pro-birth and if you're going to require women to carry a pregnancy to term without helping her out with it then you don't deserve to call yourself pro-life.

    Also, sometimes things get heated. Even if you're not anti-women, you at least don't care about how women feel if you force them to carry a pregnancy to term. Saying a woman must go through with a pregnancy is taking away their rights to their own bodies and futures. If that's secondary to the child's life to you, then you can understand why some women find that abhorrent.

    So, in short, I'm only okay with making abortion unavailable if:
    1) Adoption is painless and easy and all pregnancy-related costs prior to the adoption are covered by the state (and afterwards as well, to make sure the mother stays healthy)
    2) The mother will not suffer physically, monetarily, politically, or socially for having the child
    3) If the child is a product of rape, then the rapist WILL NOT EVER be able to see or interact with the child in a meaningful way other than child support payments
    4) Guaranteed parental leave for the first...I dunno, let's say 6 months to a year. This must be for any parents involved.
    5) If there's a significant threat to the woman's life, the pregnancy has to be able to be terminated. There will be no one's opinion on this other than the mother's considered. They get final say.

    Also, I don't believe a fetus is a person or even really alive in a meaningful sense for at least a few months. So at that point all I hear from the pro-life crowd is "You have to sacrifice your well-being for this wad of tissue that may kill or at least seriously disadvantage you in a way that men will never have to deal with."


    "Nihhina kalekal-zidu kal masun, kal manudanadu. Nihhina kalekal-zidu nukal shaghu-desasudu — nihhina kalekal-zidu kal innu-desasudu udhkal samm." Arthur Ashe
    Check out my tumblr for Chronicles of Darkness-related musings
    He/him pronouns, please

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    • #3
      So for context I myself used to be pro-life, but have over the years changed position to be strongly pro-choice.

      You are correct in noticing that both sides of the abortion debate tend to talk past each other a lot. You are also correct in picking out the "personhood" question as being central to the problem. I think the reason for the former is in large part because of the latter. The argument over what constitutes "personhood" frequently comes down to questions of subjective philosophy rather than objective biology. That tends to make it something you either believe or don't, or at the very least you either prioritize or don't. Since there isn't really any give to be had on that particular front, the debate shifts into the other areas that get wrapped up in the larger abortion question: bodily autonomy, women's rights, sexual mores, etc.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by BigDamnHero View Post
        Because if there aren't god-tier adoption services available, free medical care for the woman while she's pregnant to assist with the pregnancy and delivery, and post-natal care for both the woman, child, and father to ensure that an unwanted pregnancy won't disrupt their lives too much, and strong social services for families with young children, and laws against rapists getting parental rights, then anybody who claims they're pro-life stinks of hypocrisy to me. At that point you're just pro-birth and if you're going to require women to carry a pregnancy to term without helping her out with it then you don't deserve to call yourself pro-life.

        Also, sometimes things get heated. Even if you're not anti-women, you at least don't care about how women feel if you force them to carry a pregnancy to term. Saying a woman must go through with a pregnancy is taking away their rights to their own bodies and futures. If that's secondary to the child's life to you, then you can understand why some women find that abhorrent.

        So, in short, I'm only okay with making abortion unavailable if:
        1) Adoption is painless and easy and all pregnancy-related costs prior to the adoption are covered by the state (and afterwards as well, to make sure the mother stays healthy)
        2) The mother will not suffer physically, monetarily, politically, or socially for having the child
        3) If the child is a product of rape, then the rapist WILL NOT EVER be able to see or interact with the child in a meaningful way other than child support payments
        4) Guaranteed parental leave for the first...I dunno, let's say 6 months to a year. This must be for any parents involved.
        5) If there's a significant threat to the woman's life, the pregnancy has to be able to be terminated. There will be no one's opinion on this other than the mother's considered. They get final say.

        Also, I don't believe a fetus is a person or even really alive in a meaningful sense for at least a few months. So at that point all I hear from the pro-life crowd is "You have to sacrifice your well-being for this wad of tissue that may kill or at least seriously disadvantage you in a way that men will never have to deal with."
        I think we as a society could make your 5 points a reality. I do agree with allowing abortions in a life death situations Because if i was locked ina room that was about to explode and the only way to get out would be killing someone,i think i might do it. but doing that in almost any other situation should be illegal.
        One situation that really made me mad last year was i found out someone i idolized aborted and their reason was "I still wanted to go to parties and live my life only for myself and not lose any money". Those were their words, not mine. Even if they didnt believe a fetus is a person,they still threw away something that was going to be a person because they wanted to go to parties. that's the pro-choicers i'm afraid of.
        I do have to disagree with "the mother will not suffer monetarily". No money is worth that much and that's coming from someone who has poor for a very long time and suffered depression because of his poverty.
        Also, if you wanted to know my reasoning for seeing fetuses as people. it's because they have a brain,they can think. no matter how base their thoughts are.
        Last edited by Nicolas Milioni; 12-01-2016, 02:57 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
          So for context I myself used to be pro-life, but have over the years changed position to be strongly pro-choice.

          You are correct in noticing that both sides of the abortion debate tend to talk past each other a lot. You are also correct in picking out the "personhood" question as being central to the problem. I think the reason for the former is in large part because of the latter. The argument over what constitutes "personhood" frequently comes down to questions of subjective philosophy rather than objective biology. That tends to make it something you either believe or don't, or at the very least you either prioritize or don't. Since there isn't really any give to be had on that particular front, the debate shifts into the other areas that get wrapped up in the larger abortion question: bodily autonomy, women's rights, sexual mores, etc.
          I agree with you there,many pro-lifers are acting out of prejudice and downright mysoginy instead of trying to protect people.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
            I think we as a society could make your 5 points a reality. I do agree with allowing abortions in a life death situations Because if i was locked ina room that was about to explode and the only way to get out would be killing someone,i think i might do it. but doing that in almost any other situation should be illegal.
            One situation that really made me mad last year was i found out someone i idolized aborted and their reason was "I still wanted to go to parties and live my life only for myself" their words not mine. Even if they didnt believe a fetus is a person,they still threw away something that was going to be a person because they wanted to go to parties. that's the pro-choicers i'm afraid of.
            Well, personally I think that's their right. It might seem cold, but my stance on it is this: "If a child-bearing person decides that for whatever reason having a child will negatively impact their life, livelihood, or future, they shouldn't be forced to have a child." That's why I won't compromise on my 5 points. Nobody should have the responsibility of another life forced upon them, so either we say "Okay, then you have the right to not bring that life into the world." or we make it so that it isn't a burden.


            "Nihhina kalekal-zidu kal masun, kal manudanadu. Nihhina kalekal-zidu nukal shaghu-desasudu — nihhina kalekal-zidu kal innu-desasudu udhkal samm." Arthur Ashe
            Check out my tumblr for Chronicles of Darkness-related musings
            He/him pronouns, please

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            • #7
              Originally posted by BigDamnHero View Post

              Well, personally I think that's their right. It might seem cold, but my stance on it is this: "If a child-bearing person decides that for whatever reason having a child will negatively impact their life, livelihood, or future, they shouldn't be forced to have a child." That's why I won't compromise on my 5 points. Nobody should have the responsibility of another life forced upon them, so either we say "Okay, then you have the right to not bring that life into the world." or we make it so that it isn't a burden.
              It's putting someone for ana doption that hard in your country? In mine,despite many social problems, it's kinda easy,it had a whole tv show about it.

              Comment


              • #8
                I think the perception that all pro-life people hate/don't care about women is pretty much the same as the perception that all pro-choice people hate/don't care about babies. Both are mostly rhetoric designed to smear the opposing side, and I don't think either is really true of the majority of people on either side. Ultimately people fall on one side or the other for altruistic reasons; it's just a matter of different values. The problem with criminalizing abortions, in my opinion, is that it doesn't stop them. It just makes them more dangerous for the woman. If you want to protect unborn babies, better sex education is a more effective way to do that. Reducing unwanted and unintended pregancies will do more to reduce abortions than criminalizing them.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                  If you want to protect unborn babies, better sex education is a more effective way to do that. Reducing unwanted and unintended pregancies will do more to reduce abortions than criminalizing them.
                  Dangit, sex education, I knew I was missing a bullet in my list. It's super important.

                  EDIT: A part "good sex education" includes never teaching abstinence-only. Birth control should be freely accessible by everybody, and child-bearing people shouldn't be punished if the birth control doesn't work. Again: If a child-bearing person doesn't want a child, then they should not be forced to have a child for any reason, including mistakes. And pre-marital sex better not count as a mistake, or as something worth punishing.
                  Last edited by BigDamnHero; 12-01-2016, 03:06 PM.


                  "Nihhina kalekal-zidu kal masun, kal manudanadu. Nihhina kalekal-zidu nukal shaghu-desasudu — nihhina kalekal-zidu kal innu-desasudu udhkal samm." Arthur Ashe
                  Check out my tumblr for Chronicles of Darkness-related musings
                  He/him pronouns, please

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I was pro-life and frankly, I still think abortion is morally wrong, but now I am pro-choice. This is what changed my mind:

                    I had a close friend in college who had an abortion. Giving birth and giving up the child would have been emotionally devastating to her. She was not the most emotionally stable person and would have most likely committed suicide in that situation. She wavered a lot about whether she should keep the child. She was 18 years old, had poor taste in men, and was unemployed. If she had the child, she would have been had trapped in an emotionally abusive relationship (because being the mother of his child constituted ownership to the father's point of view). She couldn't give the child the best life possible.

                    Now, not knowing her personally, it would be easy to say "Oh, she should have known better. She should have not had sex if she didn't understand the consequences." or "She should have stuck it up and given it up for adoption."

                    But you don't know. You haven't had to watch your friend suffer though this decision. When she asked me what I thought, I didn't give her the spiel I learned in Catholic school. All those words seemed heartless in her case. Instead I told her it was her decision and I would support whatever she did. I even talked to a mutual friend who was also Pro-Life and we both agreed that the friend's situation was special. She wasn't like those women we were taught in Catholic school.

                    So I went on with my life. Still pro-life, in spite of advising my friend to make her own choice. in my defense, I wasn't completely heartless. I was pro-birth control. I support increased social services. But I drew the line at abortion.

                    Then I read the only mortal abortion is my own abortion. And I saw the same excuses I made for supporting my friend reflected in those stories. Obviously, their situation was different. The same words I used all those years ago with my friend. That is when I realized every situation is different when you are living it. That the decision to end a pregnancy should be between a woman and her doctor. I, nor the government, had no place in that decision.

                    To look at this from another point of view, consider end of life care. The decision to end life support is left with the family or the individual if they wrote a living will. From a certain point of view, not doing everything in your power to help an individual live could be considered murder. Yet this highly personal decision is not decided by the government.

                    Just like from a certain point of view, people consider ending the pregnancy murder.


                    Are you ready to rage? Discover if you are Brave Enough to fight for the soul of the world.

                    The Werewolf: the Apocalypse Quest updates on Mondays. All are welcome to vote.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                      It's putting someone for ana doption that hard in your country? In mine,despite many social problems, it's kinda easy,it had a whole tv show about it.
                      I live in the US.

                      If you are white baby, it is easy to find a home. Most people who wish to adopt want a child that sort of looks like them. And most of the people who have money to adopt are white. Thus white babies are easy. But those aren't the only children who need a home. If you aren't white, you could be giving birth to a baby and sending them to foster care.

                      (FYI, my friend in my previous post was Hispanic. )
                      Last edited by wonderandawe; 12-01-2016, 03:19 PM.


                      Are you ready to rage? Discover if you are Brave Enough to fight for the soul of the world.

                      The Werewolf: the Apocalypse Quest updates on Mondays. All are welcome to vote.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post
                        I was pro-life and frankly, I still think abortion is morally wrong, but now I am pro-choice. This is what changed my mind:

                        I had a close friend in college who had an abortion. Giving birth and giving up the child would have been emotionally devastating to her. She was not the most emotionally stable person and would have most likely committed suicide in that situation. She wavered a lot about whether she should keep the child. She was 18 years old, had poor taste in men, and was unemployed. If she had the child, she would have been had trapped in an emotionally abusive relationship (because being the mother of his child constituted ownership to the father's point of view). She couldn't give the child the best life possible.

                        Now, not knowing her personally, it would be easy to say "Oh, she should have known better. She should have not had sex if she didn't understand the consequences." or "She should have stuck it up and given it up for adoption."

                        But you don't know. You haven't had to watch your friend suffer though this decision. When she asked me what I thought, I didn't give her the spiel I learned in Catholic school. All those words seemed heartless in her case. Instead I told her it was her decision and I would support whatever she did. I even talked to a mutual friend who was also Pro-Life and we both agreed that the friend's situation was special. She wasn't like those women we were taught in Catholic school.

                        So I went on with my life. Still pro-life, in spite of advising my friend to make her own choice. in my defense, I wasn't completely heartless. I was pro-birth control. I support increased social services. But I drew the line at abortion.

                        Then I read http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml"]the only mortal abortion is my own abortion[/URL]. And I saw the same excuses I made for supporting my friend reflected in those stories. Obviously, their situation was different. The same words I used all those years ago with my friend. That is when I realized every situation is different when you are living it. That the decision to end a pregnancy should be between a woman and her doctor. I, nor the government, had no place in that decision.

                        To look at this from another point of view, consider end of life care. The decision to end life support is left with the family or the individual if they wrote a living will. From a certain point of view, not doing everything in your power to help an individual live could be considered murder. Yet this highly personal decision is not decided by the government.

                        Just like from a certain point of view, people consider ending the pregnancy murder.
                        The choice she had to make was either wrecking her Life or taking away the Life of another. I still think she didnt made a Good choice. All the things that would have happened to herbif she cartões the birth could be fixed she could have dodged the guy, she could have solved it somehow it's a huge maybe but it's still possible. Theres no mayb,for the kid no other possibility. The kid has no Life and thats it.
                        Só if the choice is wrecking your Life or aborting. Wreck it. your Life can be fixed,the kid cant regain the life they lost

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                          The choice she had to make was either wrecking her Life or taking away the Life of another. I still think she didnt made a Good choice. All the things that would have happened to herbif she cartões the birth could be fixed she could have dodged the guy, she could have solved it somehow it's a huge maybe but it's still possible. Theres no mayb,for the kid no other possibility. The kid has no Life and thats it.
                          Só if the choice is wrecking your Life or aborting. Wreck it. your Life can be fixed,the kid cant regain the life they lost
                          You also have to consider the possibility that no life might be better for the (potential) kid than the life they would be stuck with as a result of the situation they would be born into.


                          Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                          My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                            You also have to consider the possibility that no life might be better for the (potential) kid than the life they would be stuck with as a result of the situation they would be born into.
                            People esccape from horrible situations all the time. I think is better to be born into an horrible situation and having a chance to escape than to never have a life

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                              You also have to consider the possibility that no life might be better for the (potential) kid than the life they would be stuck with as a result of the situation they would be born into.
                              That's kind of a dark argument. I know some people who were born to pretty brutal situations who have ended up having happy and successful lives, and they are quite glad their parents didn't opt for an abortion.

                              I mean, I'm pretty pro-choice, but the idea that some people are better off never being allowed to live (save in the case where they have the most horrific of birth defects) is not an argument that I am comfortable seeing be made.

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