White Wolf hires Zak Smith - Im out!

[Nicolas Milioni]

He responded to, "I'm concerned you might be flipping political correctness the bird" with, "don't worry, we're going to explore the most flammable themes" which indicates he's clearly misunderstanding the concern. He suggests that in order to be analyzed, sexual violence and oppression need to not only be examined in the game, but played. He equates American politics with Victorian moralism. He attempts to assuage concerns about representation by saying they are "working on some interesting designs for gender, sexuality, and 'ethnicity' you have never seen in computer games", which... First of all, what does that even mean, and second of all, why on earth did he make a point of putting "ethnicity" in quotation marks? Is he trying to express skepticism about the concept of ethnicity? Cause that's... disconcerting. And he tries to defend his position with meaningless statements like "White Wolf could never be right-wing" and "I'm a lifelong activist myself" which fail to address the issue in any way and again, show a misunderstanding for where the concern is coming from. It just shows that he is out of touch and seems to think that merely bringing up controversial topics is progressive in and of itself, without any regard for how to handle those topics responsibly and maturely.

Ah, I agree withat you on being concerned that they will adress oppression issues badly or even offensively. That can happen. I was weirded out by some people saying the new white wolf is doomed because he likes to talk funny and that he wants flammable themes in the games.

[PMárk]

I should add it's always better, in my opinion, to speak about controversial topics and real-world issues and tripping up sometimes then not speaking about them at all or showing them in an one-sided way.

[atamajakki]

He responded to, "I'm concerned you might be flipping political correctness the bird" with, "don't worry, we're going to explore the most flammable themes" which indicates he's clearly misunderstanding the concern. He suggests that in order to be analyzed, sexual violence and oppression need to not only be examined in the game, but played. He equates American politics with Victorian moralism. He attempts to assuage concerns about representation by saying they are "working on some interesting designs for gender, sexuality, and 'ethnicity' you have never seen in computer games", which... First of all, what does that even mean, and second of all, why on earth did he make a point of putting "ethnicity" in quotation marks? Is he trying to express skepticism about the concept of ethnicity? Cause that's... disconcerting. And he tries to defend his position with meaningless statements like "White Wolf could never be right-wing" and "I'm a lifelong activist myself" which fail to address the issue in any way and again, show a misunderstanding for where the concern is coming from. It just shows that he is out of touch and seems to think that merely bringing up controversial topics is progressive in and of itself, without any regard for how to handle those topics responsibly and maturely.

And then he went on to hire someone horrid who wrote a really terrible trans character. It basically read like a promise that new White Wolf was going to tackle controversial topics terribly and then they went ahead and did so.

[Nicolas Milioni]

And then he went on to hire someone horrid who wrote a really terrible trans character. It basically read like a promise that new White Wolf was going to tackle controversial topics terribly and then they went ahead and did so.

YeAh, I still have bit of faith on them. But hiring a criminal will always be a taint in that company

[Charlaquin]

I should add it's always better, in my opinion, to speak about controversial topics and real-world issues and tripping up sometimes then not speaking about them at all or showing them in an one-sided way.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by a one-sided way, but I think I agree with this sentiment for the most part. By the same token, however, to handle such themes carelessly is worse still than not speaking about them at all. It's ok to make mistakes, it's not okay to use that as an excuse not to try to do something right. And what I have seen from White Wolf so far is extreme enthusiasm for the prospect of tackling delicate topics and nothing beyond vague platitudes about how they intend to handle them right. It's like the child who is really excited to help you set the table, but can't keep still long enough to answer you when you ask if they're going to be careful with your fancy china.

[loomer]

That's the crux of it when it comes to why I'm not happy with their direction (leaving aside, for the moment, the whole 'hiring harassers' issue) - I don't have that faith. I seem to be one of the only people to have read Martin's only personal contribution to the setting so far and it was abysmal, and not the touch of someone I want handling and exploring incredibly delicate subjects. Hiring Smith and the rest of the shit churned out lately is just more evidence that while the idea may have merits, these are not the people to execute it.

[Yossarian]

That's the crux of it when it comes to why I'm not happy with their direction (leaving aside, for the moment, the whole 'hiring harassers' issue) - I don't have that faith. I seem to be one of the only people to have read Martin's only personal contribution to the setting so far and it was abysmal, and not the touch of someone I want handling and exploring incredibly delicate subjects. Hiring Smith and the rest of the shit churned out lately is just more evidence that while the idea may have merits, these are not the people to execute it.

Pretty much. The pull quote that's been going around from the story you're referring to was a real eye opener. "Oh, okay, this is just trying to be gross for grossness' sake. Kewl."

[LokiRavenSpeak]

And then our very special friend Martin:
Mosdef not flipping the bird. Quite the opposite. We are including the most flammable real world themes to explore them and address them both artistically and with a strong political analysis. White Wilf could never be a right-wing. It's progressive to the core. Lifelong activist meself. To do progressive analysis sexual violence, oppression, poverty etc. need to feature prominently and played. To me excusing them smacks of Victorian / American moralism and conservatism. WoD is a wehicle for exploring the forbidden. Yes, and working on some interesting designs on gender, sexuality and "ethnicity" you have never seen in computer games.
WoD is art. It explores. It allows us to take a first person perspective on complex social issues and learn its workings and the temptation it brings. With this analysis we stand more ready, as individuals and as a collective, to kill the vampire in us and oppose it in society.

Blood and souls

Oh good old Dracula, this is why people call you that. You earned the nickname with blood and souls

[TidyGamer]

On the topic of Zak himself, I don't have anything to contribute that hasn't already been said and I'm confident if anyone has read any of my opinions splashed out on the boards here they would have a good idea of where I stand regarding his... behavior.

Regarding the content of the media itself, I think puerile is a good word. Everything I've seen makes it look like transgressiveness is the end, not the means. It's the production of shocking material who's entire purpose seems to just be to shock the viewer, and any deeper intended commentary on modern society is lost in the background noise. It's Banksy's "Welcome to Dismaland" where Snow White has an apple tramp stamp and is dying of a heroin overdose while she's being gang banged by seven dwarves, meant to shock and appall while the artist hems and haws about how it's got deeper meaning that the plebes are just to stupid to get.

Maybe I'm just Jaded, and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it will come together nicely and not be the train wreck I expect it to be. As is, it seems like a gameline's mid life crisis where it tries to re-capture it's idealized high school career and it's too blinded by nostalgia to recognize that it is impossible to re-create the made up past that it thinks was so great again,

(Actually you know what, it reminds me of Jared Leto's portrayal of Joker in Suicide Squad, both in the film and during production)

[EldritchMinister]

I have been watching this unfold for some time now, even before White Wolf hired Zak S. On one hand, the discussion only keeps Zak more and more relevant which is what I believe someone like him probably enjoys, however, I also believe that this discussion is long overdue as his actions and words are quite unbelievably heinous. I have been an avid fan of White Wolf since it's inception and also Onyx Path Publishing. There is no way in hell that I will be joining in any type of boycotting of OPP because this gameline is too special to me. Also, I am quite looking forward to seeing what VtM 5 has to offer. My gaming table is open to all people and always has and will be and I want to be able to provide the best of games. While I have no positive things to say about Zak S. himself, I have to also admit I have used Vornheim and Blue Medusa. I also run a 2 year long (now) game of D&D 5e with a group. I feel that boycotting these will only hurt the entire gameline itself and the company and if you want to see the demise of something great, then go ahead, but that is counterproductive in my opinion and will only cause much more collateral damage than you can possibly see at this point and from your side. I have lesbian daughter who has many trans friends and we have them to our house constantly because they don't have many places to go here in this city (it is a VERY red state and the city is even worse). My daughter is actually a huge fan of his work and has seen much of the controversy. I believe someone said it above 20+ pages ago, be a critic of the art and not the artist themselves. This could not be further from the truth.

I don't know, I just see much more damage happening due to this and a lot more darker days ahead for this genre and my favorite gamelines and it pains me to say this, but a lot of it is due to the way BOTH sides are handling this situation...I would also like to add, that calling others by names, no matter how little it may be or making fun of the way someone writes or signs a email/letter/etc. is really disheartening to see. You flame the other side by saying things like "he called this person this" but are willing to do JUST the same. REGARDLESS of the actual name used, no matter if it is something YOU don't consider offensive, remember you are using it in an OFFENSIVE way which carries the exact same negativity. Are we all not adults here that can have a conversation AND debate without lowering ourselves to the same BS that we do not tolerate on the other side of the argument? Say what you will, but fact is fact and truth is truth.

Of course, these are my opinions only...

[hm8453a]

I don't care about offense, I care about harm.

Also, did you know that context matters? For example, a lot of people lately (not on this thread) saying "if you punch a literal Nazi, you're being like a Nazi yourself".

If you're not advocating genocide, no, you're really not being ~like a Nazi~ yourself.

But as you said, it's just your opinion.

[Omegaphallic]

That's the crux of it when it comes to why I'm not happy with their direction (leaving aside, for the moment, the whole 'hiring harassers' issue) - I don't have that faith. I seem to be one of the only people to have read Martin's only personal contribution to the setting so far and it was abysmal, and not the touch of someone I want handling and exploring incredibly delicate subjects. Hiring Smith and the rest of the shit churned out lately is just more evidence that while the idea may have merits, these are not the people to execute it.

What was Martin's personal contribution to the setting?

[Fat Larry]

but a lot of it is due to the way BOTH sides are handling this situation...

Of course, these are my opinions only...

Nah, I feel the same way for the most part. To be fair, I'm not the target audience for Zak, or the people currently at odds with him. I'm just not.

I'm still VERY excited to see what comes about with the World of Darkness under Paradox, and extremely excited for the WtA videogame. I look at what Martin has said so far to be harmless; and he kind of reminds me of myself when I was trying desperately to pick up every WoD supplement in my teens and early 20's. Sure, I've grown up since then, but at the end of the day, I just want to play vampires that turn people into lamps, werewolves that rip things to shreds, and hunters with special powers that ride on Harley-Davidsons.

From what I've seen so far, I've just tempered my excitement a bit. Just a bit.

[YeOfLittleFaith]

[email protected] is the one he spoke to me with before.

Mail not found. He might have changed it, but is it spelled right without the "j"?

[Bunyip]

What was Martin's personal contribution to the setting?

WWP re-released an anthology of stories published years ago. From what I've seen it attracted some controversy as it was edited by a convicted child abuser. (I'm not familiar with this aspect and don't know when the conviction occurred in the timeline of things.)

Martin added one story that he wrote to the re-released anthology. I've not read it, but opinion I've seen suggests it's not very good.