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  • #16
    Originally posted by Papa Bear View Post
    I've seen the movie. It's taking shots at a lot of stereotypes: privileged whites, militant blacks, whites who only like blacks, blacks who only like whites, etc, etc. The one poor guys I feel bad for is the gay black student who doesn't seem to be accepted by anyone.
    When I first saw the name of the show I was not very happy, but when I took five minutes to look at exactly what it was about this is what I discovered.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Tobias View Post
      Why is this any different?
      ​Because the historical and power dynamic is different.

      University parties in which a bunch of white people go around in blackface are an actual thing.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Tobias View Post
        The Netflix special is racist from what I have seen about it. Imagine if they made a show called Dear Black People where they took a racist stereotype of blacks and applied it to every black person. Imagine the outcry!? Why is this any different? The only way I know to make them accountable is too unsubscribe.
        Can you tell me what the show is about, or are you making these assertions that it's about racist white stereotypes based on its title?

        From what I can tell, it's mostly about "racism still exists and white people don't like to talk about that."

        Which strikes me as a fairly accurate assessment.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Zale View Post

          Can you tell me what the show is about, or are you making these assertions that it's about racist white stereotypes based on its title?

          From what I can tell, it's mostly about "racism still exists and white people don't like to talk about that."

          Which strikes me as a fairly accurate assessment.
          Racism and prejudice will always exist, white people are tired of being told that we are racist no matter what. Everything today is racist according to SJWs, all white people are racist apparently. Everything is sexist according to SJWs, not having sex with a woman you are not physically attracted to is apparently reverse rape now.

          I watched the preview and several reviews and discussions on this. Many White people do not want to talk about racism because they are not racist and that is all they hear. Who wants to hear that they are a evil racist bigot all day every day? I don't mind talking about racism so long as the context of the conversation is not that I am racist. What I do not want is the Liberal media and Hollywood pushing out bullshit that portrays all white people as racist or pushes false narratives that defy logic, reason, and facts. This show does both. The show also shows that violent behavior that some blacks in America engage in are a correct response to whatever they perceive as offensive or racist. That is even more racist than anything the leftists here are trying to prove about white people. Really, blacks are incapable of properly handling difficult situations? I beg to differ. The left treating blacks with kid gloves and excusing violent behavior does the black community a disservice. Every single American citizen should be given equal rights under the law, and we have that, and be expected to behave in the same manner, we do not have that. The left has been, is currently, and will always be, the side drenched in racism. They peddle this bullshit to divide Americans on racial lines and to create an "Oppressed Vs the Oppressors" that does not exist in today's society. They do this because they are Cultural Marxists bent on altering and then eventually changing this country into a Socialist dystopia. So yes I see exactly what this show is truly trying to do, continue the divisions that plague our country.



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          • #20
            Tobias, could you make your point again, but with less alt-right buzzwords?


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            • #21
              So, this seems like as good an opportunity as any to talk about something that's been on my mind. I don't know about elsewhere in the world, but here in the US, it seems we are in an awkward position thanks to racism being seen as a Special Kind of Evil. Granted, racially-based predjdice is not a good thing, but we kind of have a tendency to equate "racist" = "irredeemable monster". Which makes it very difficult to call people out on minor things related to race. You can't say "hey, that joke you made kind of crossed a line for me" without the other person lashing out defensively because how dare you accuse them of being "a racist". The concept of micro-aggressions isn't taken seriously because the idea that such minor things could make someone "a racist" seems inane. When really the point is that you don't have to be "a racist" to engage in racially insensitive behavior, and that doesn't make you a horrible person, but we would all do well to be mindful of those things and to make an effort to address them.

              I feel like Avenue Q had the right idea and took the wrong lesson from it.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Tobias View Post

                Racism and prejudice will always exist, white people are tired of being told that we are racist no matter what. Everything today is racist according to SJWs, all white people are racist apparently. Everything is sexist according to SJWs, not having sex with a woman you are not physically attracted to is apparently reverse rape now.

                I watched the preview and several reviews and discussions on this. Many White people do not want to talk about racism because they are not racist and that is all they hear. Who wants to hear that they are a evil racist bigot all day every day? I don't mind talking about racism so long as the context of the conversation is not that I am racist. What I do not want is the Liberal media and Hollywood pushing out bullshit that portrays all white people as racist or pushes false narratives that defy logic, reason, and facts. This show does both. The show also shows that violent behavior that some blacks in America engage in are a correct response to whatever they perceive as offensive or racist. That is even more racist than anything the leftists here are trying to prove about white people. Really, blacks are incapable of properly handling difficult situations? I beg to differ. The left treating blacks with kid gloves and excusing violent behavior does the black community a disservice. Every single American citizen should be given equal rights under the law, and we have that, and be expected to behave in the same manner, we do not have that. The left has been, is currently, and will always be, the side drenched in racism. They peddle this bullshit to divide Americans on racial lines and to create an "Oppressed Vs the Oppressors" that does not exist in today's society. They do this because they are Cultural Marxists bent on altering and then eventually changing this country into a Socialist dystopia. So yes I see exactly what this show is truly trying to do, continue the divisions that plague our country.


                I understand your concerns, but the left isn't a monolith, I'm leftwing and I find the whole collective guilt trip tactic by SJWs against white people and men counter productive, best case scenario it alienates allies against real racist, which still an actual problem, and worse case scenario it causes a backlash against minorities among some and empowers the very disgusting racists they want to stop.

                That being said as I don't think that's really what's going on in Dear White People, but I haven't watched it yet, I am reserving final judgement till I do.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                  So, this seems like as good an opportunity as any to talk about something that's been on my mind. I don't know about elsewhere in the world, but here in the US, it seems we are in an awkward position thanks to racism being seen as a Special Kind of Evil. Granted, racially-based predjdice is not a good thing, but we kind of have a tendency to equate "racist" = "irredeemable monster".
                  To be fair, accusations of racism can ruin businesses, get people fired, cause families to break up, etc. While the wealthy and powerful can often just skate by with a vague apology for doing something racist, many regular people can end up facing a much more intense response. When someone is accused of being racist, their life can change drastically. Someone making a insensitive racial joke deserves to be called out on it, but they might not necessarily deserve to lose their job over it. So many people react very defensively towards even small accusations of racism, because those small accusations can end up having huge effects.

                  Another big issue is that racism doesn't necessarily have a concrete definition in the minds of everyone. Different people often define racism in different ways, or have their own idea of what racism is and isn't, which can also cause problems when it comes to calling someone racist.

                  For example, one popular definition is, "racism is the mixture of power + prejudice" which means racism can only be carried out by someone who both has power and is prejudiced. As only white people in America have power, this means that minorities are incapable of engaging in racism, only in being prejudice. So if a white person were to say, "Kill all the black people," that would be racist because the white person has power and is engaging in prejudice, whereas is a black person said, "Kill all the white people," that would not be racist, just prejudiced, because as a black person he does not possess power.

                  But that's not the only definition of racism, and under some definitions someone might be engaging in racist behavior, whereas under others they aren't.

                  Basically, being called a racist can have huge consequences, but not everyone agrees on what is racist. Some things are obviously racist (like neo-Nazi's holding a march) but with other things it's a bit less clear cut. And then for some people, they don't believe you can have a "minor" act of racism - any act of racism, no matter how small, needs to have immediate and serious consequences. Only by ensuring that people do lose their job for a minor racist joke will people stop telling racist jokes,

                  So you end up with people sometimes being incredibly defensive when they face even the most minor accusation of racism and I can't necessarily blame them for being so terrified of being called racist.
                  Last edited by AnubisXy; 04-27-2017, 08:28 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Omegaphallic and AnubisXy , thanks, those are very good points!

                    Honestly, I don't envy you Americans with all this crap going on. I hope this current hysterical zeitgeist will pass in the not-so-distant future, because it's just toxic and I'm saying this as a liberal/egalitarian person (which I know is just another version of Nazi, or even worse to certain parts of the left nowadays, but oh, well).

                    To me, racism happens, when people get treated badly and/or as an inferior/worse human being due to their race (and no, occasionally cracking jokes based on racial/cultural stereotypes is not necessarily that, but it's somewhat based on the situation, the person saying/hearing it and how often you do it? Still, I think everybody should be able to laugh on themselves and being self-critical and humor helps that). That's it. No definitions I could look up hastily in dictionaries said anything about "power in society". The whole idea of "only white people could be racist, because they are in power" is flawed in almost every sense in my view and an extremely racist idea on it's own, IMO.

                    It's my definite opinion for a time, that the ideological spectrum is not a line, but a circle and the two extremes are awfully close to each other in both in methods and in the motivations behind their otherwise different ideas,


                    If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Tobias View Post

                      Racism and prejudice will always exist, white people are tired of being told that we are racist no matter what. Everything today is racist according to SJWs, all white people are racist apparently. Everything is sexist according to SJWs, not having sex with a woman you are not physically attracted to is apparently reverse rape now.

                      I watched the preview and several reviews and discussions on this. Many White people do not want to talk about racism because they are not racist and that is all they hear. Who wants to hear that they are a evil racist bigot all day every day? I don't mind talking about racism so long as the context of the conversation is not that I am racist. What I do not want is the Liberal media and Hollywood pushing out bullshit that portrays all white people as racist or pushes false narratives that defy logic, reason, and facts. This show does both. The show also shows that violent behavior that some blacks in America engage in are a correct response to whatever they perceive as offensive or racist. That is even more racist than anything the leftists here are trying to prove about white people. Really, blacks are incapable of properly handling difficult situations? I beg to differ. The left treating blacks with kid gloves and excusing violent behavior does the black community a disservice. Every single American citizen should be given equal rights under the law, and we have that, and be expected to behave in the same manner, we do not have that. The left has been, is currently, and will always be, the side drenched in racism. They peddle this bullshit to divide Americans on racial lines and to create an "Oppressed Vs the Oppressors" that does not exist in today's society. They do this because they are Cultural Marxists bent on altering and then eventually changing this country into a Socialist dystopia. So yes I see exactly what this show is truly trying to do, continue the divisions that plague our country.


                      This is some of the most ignorant and inflammatory bullshit I've seen someone post on these forums. Take a week off and if you come back keep the alt-right rhetoric and opinions to yourself, they have no place here. The mods have repeatedly warned people not to use SJW as a pejorative, no more warnings.
                      Last edited by Darksider; 04-27-2017, 08:03 PM.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                        So, this seems like as good an opportunity as any to talk about something that's been on my mind. I don't know about elsewhere in the world, but here in the US, it seems we are in an awkward position thanks to racism being seen as a Special Kind of Evil. Granted, racially-based predjdice is not a good thing, but we kind of have a tendency to equate "racist" = "irredeemable monster". Which makes it very difficult to call people out on minor things related to race. You can't say "hey, that joke you made kind of crossed a line for me" without the other person lashing out defensively because how dare you accuse them of being "a racist". The concept of micro-aggressions isn't taken seriously because the idea that such minor things could make someone "a racist" seems inane. When really the point is that you don't have to be "a racist" to engage in racially insensitive behavior, and that doesn't make you a horrible person, but we would all do well to be mindful of those things and to make an effort to address them.

                        I feel like Avenue Q had the right idea and took the wrong lesson from it.
                        This is something I've noticed as well. Its difficult to explain the concept of institutional racism and individual prejudice because we've created this image of a capital-R "Racist" with a Klan robe and a Nazi armband. A cartoon villain synonymous with evil. People think "I can't be saying/doing something racist because that would make me a Racist and Racists Are Bad People. I'm not a bad person." We don't like shades of gray, we don't like self-reflection, and we like difficult solutions least of all. Its much easier to see the world as good people versus bad people, as opposed to a messy system of well-meaning people with prejudices they may not even be aware of that come out of cultural and historical baggage all making choices based on seemingly reasonable calculations and value judgments the aggregate of which still creates outcomes that are prejudicial and oppressive.

                        I've grown to hate the Avenue Q song. Not because of itself, but because of the meme its turned into. "Everybody's a little bit racist... therefore whatever it is I'm doing that's perceived as racist doesn't really matter and whoever is complaining about it is a hypocrite."

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                        • #27
                          its very interesting to me when I see people in gaming communities hold these types of conversations regarding race. Naturally, given the large number of white men who make up the table table top gaming genre, there are a lot of people like some on here (i won't name them specifically because i don't want to get banned and i have a feeling that mentioning people who are in their current situation might be a forum etiquette faux pa) who are so lost in their self supporting worldview that they have become convinced that white men are the real ones who are being persecuted by being expected to treat others as human beings for a change, and as many people have pointed out, they tend to sound like members of alt-right groups.

                          then there are others who skirt the lines of apologist language, who don't agree with the alt-right sounding individuals, but want to make allowances for them, in politics they are often referred to as liberals, the moderates in the political spectrum who believe they are on the left simply because they are contrasted by the right.

                          I am a person of color and a gamer, and i can tell you that this is not always the easiest combination to be due to both of the above groups of people.

                          I want to say that many of the opinions on what is racist present here seem very lacking, and they avoid what is at the core of racism. Racism is an institution designed to maintain the power of the status quo, and combatting racism is going to be uncomfortable because combatting the status quo is uncomfortable. Now i know it is easy to return to the straw man argument against only white people being capable of racism, because it is a pretty ridiculous notion, but the fact that racism is an institution that permeates our media, our mores, and every aspect of our very lives means that every person has been indoctrinated into a culture of racism and everyone is racists, especially white people who are the main beneficiaries of the white supremacist status quo.

                          I know that this is a disquieting notion, because racism is vile, and most people do not want to think of themselves as being intrinsically part of a vile system, but it really doesn't make sense to me when i see people who benefit from racism constantly denying their own participation in it, and by that i mean the system created by racism, when almost every poc i know is still dealing with the effects of internalized racism, even after years of working to get it out of their system.

                          So no, white people are not the only ones who can be racist, i can personally attest to this after seeing plenty of poc who were racist towards different groups of poc, but that does not change the fact that white people are the ultimate beneficiaries of a system built on racism in the current world that we live in, and yea it may be terrible for people who have to face the consequences of their actions, but the response to this is not to be more accepting of racist behavior, but to provide systems through which people can work towards alleviating themselves of their racist culture.

                          No one is born a racist, but in the world that we live in, it is almost a sure thing that people will be taught how to be that way very easily, and i do believe that the only way to reverse this indoctrination of white supremacy that everyone goes through to varying levels is through education (and by this i do not mean just any education as intellectuals are often just as racist as the uneducated if not more so, i mean a specific education in anti-racism), but people got to be willing to accept that they have a problem first, and that they will likely always have a problem that they have to constantly work on.

                          Working to abolish the status quo if institutionalized white supremacy and racism is not a race where you can get to a finish line and stop working, it is a project that must be undertook by all people constantly so that some day in the future, we will have eradicated the traces of casual and overt racism from our collective culture so that future generations will not be indoctrinated into it in the same way that we have, and not have to make the same efforts that we do. My wife was raised in a world where the pinnacle of beauty was seen as a whiteness, and because of this she still doubts to this day whether or not she is as attractive as the most basic looking of white women when she is by far the more gorgeous woman i've ever seen, and inshallah i hope to raise daughters who are not raised with the same culture where european beauty standards and whiteness are seen as the paragon of humanity so that they will not have to deal with the same.

                          anyways, i know this got a bit off topic and wasn't related to the original post about the movie, and i apologize for that, but i feel that it was related to the line of discussion that this thread followed, please forgive me if i have overstepped, i usually don't leave my specific forum.

                          Caitiff Primogen i saw your post after i submitted mine and i didn't want to double post so i'm just adding this to the end of this one but i feel like you said a bit of what i did a bit more succinctly than i did and i appreciate your addition.
                          Last edited by norraba; 04-27-2017, 10:16 PM.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                            So, this seems like as good an opportunity as any to talk about something that's been on my mind. I don't know about elsewhere in the world, but here in the US, it seems we are in an awkward position thanks to racism being seen as a Special Kind of Evil. Granted, racially-based predjdice is not a good thing, but we kind of have a tendency to equate "racist" = "irredeemable monster". Which makes it very difficult to call people out on minor things related to race. You can't say "hey, that joke you made kind of crossed a line for me" without the other person lashing out defensively because how dare you accuse them of being "a racist". The concept of micro-aggressions isn't taken seriously because the idea that such minor things could make someone "a racist" seems inane. When really the point is that you don't have to be "a racist" to engage in racially insensitive behavior, and that doesn't make you a horrible person, but we would all do well to be mindful of those things and to make an effort to address them.

                            I feel like Avenue Q had the right idea and took the wrong lesson from it.
                            That's because microaggressions aren't a thing, some of us, and that includes none white people don't like having every little thing we say policed by an annoying college student who misinterrupt things in search of something to be agrrieved about.

                            Its one of the many bad ideas coming from college campuses now, along with safe spaces, trigger warnings, free speech zones (which should be the whole campus not some corner you need to get an appointment too), checking privledge, and Kangeroo Courts where you guilty until proven innocent...oh wait that's right you not allowed to prove you innocence.

                            This is like of stuff that Trump loves, its pisses normal people off and makes it easier for him to win.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
                              This is something I've noticed as well. Its difficult to explain the concept of institutional racism and individual prejudice because we've created this image of a capital-R "Racist" with a Klan robe and a Nazi armband. A cartoon villain synonymous with evil. People think "I can't be saying/doing something racist because that would make me a Racist and Racists Are Bad People. I'm not a bad person." We don't like shades of gray, we don't like self-reflection, and we like difficult solutions least of all. Its much easier to see the world as good people versus bad people, as opposed to a messy system of well-meaning people with prejudices they may not even be aware of that come out of cultural and historical baggage all making choices based on seemingly reasonable calculations and value judgments the aggregate of which still creates outcomes that are prejudicial and oppressive.
                              Exactly! Well said.

                              Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
                              I've grown to hate the Avenue Q song. Not because of itself, but because of the meme its turned into. "Everybody's a little bit racist... therefore whatever it is I'm doing that's perceived as racist doesn't really matter and whoever is complaining about it is a hypocrite."
                              I fully agree. But, like I said, I think it's drawing the wrong conclusions from the right realization. "If we all could just admit that we are racist a little bit (...) maybe we could live in harmony!" is actually a really valuable message. It's just the omitted part in the middle that's misguided. Accepting that we do have culturally ingrained racist tendencies allows us to better critically examine those tendencies, instead of trying to brush them under the rug as "not really Racist".


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
                                This is like of stuff that Trump loves, its pisses normal people off and makes it easier for him to win.
                                Who are normal people?

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