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  • I'm Done

    I can no longer comfortably support Onyx Path.

    I've enjoyed these games for years, consider many of them near and dear to my heart, and for a while really hoped to be picked up as a freelancer, but from here on out I'm no longer touching WoD, CofD, or anything else they put out; I'll receive whatever's coming from Kickstarters I've already funded, and that's it. I might come back to playing Mummy or Promethean with my gaming group at some point in the future, but for right now everything is so tainted that I'm pretty damn close to just walking away and playing other things.

    The entire situation with new White Wolf (not only the actions of Martin and Zak, but how threads rightly objecting to those actions on this forum were locked and deleted) pushed me pretty close to the edge, but what's got me finally upset enough to walk away has been everything recently with David Hill. To have the Changeling 2e developer so quickly disavowed by his former peers has been incredibly hard to see, and the prospect of the game he's been previewing for literally years now no longer being the game we'll be getting, in favor of largely new and chopped up content and minimized credit due to him (and according to some, lessened pay), is honestly disgusting. He's done good work, and deserves better than this.

    So I'm done. I'm not going to be buying any further Onyx Path content, and I'm probably not going to be playing much more of it either. It's been nice interacting with some of you, and I've got pleasant memories.

    This thread will probably get locked or deleted.


    Just call me Lex.

    Female pronouns for me, please.

  • #2
    I feel similarly. When there are at least 3 freelancers sharing stories about abysmally low pay (less than minimum wage), missed pay, and docked pay, it's hard to justify buying these products. At best, it curbs my (considerable) enthusiasm for these wonderful worlds.


    Mage: the Awakening 2E - Hogwarts: the Wizarding World Chronicle
    Mummy: the Curse - Lightweight 2E Conversion; Disciples of Duat

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    • #3
      I mean, the whole Zak & Martin are things that people are upset with, but I don't know enough about the Changeling 2E situation, I'm just looking forward to its release. I think Onyx Path for the most part has tried their best to publish content that is engaging and stay on the side of caution with everything that has gone on, but I respect your opinion. Sorry you've gotten to the point of not supporting Onyx Path, but it's always sad to see people leave . Best of luck Lex, in future gaming!

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      • #4
        That's...sad new. I was always more of a lurker than anything and we never really interacted much, but you were always someone whose posts and comments I found interesting, well-written and a whole lot of other positive adjectives. I looked forward both to your replies and your works. I do understand your position though and i would not dare to try to make you change your mind.

        I wish you the best, Lex


        Cinder's Comprehensive Collection of Creations - Homebrew Hub
        Nightmares & Dreamscapes - Got any ideas about the denizens of the Primordial Dream? Come here and let's share our nightmares together

        We finally got pictures of Pluto. No Mi-Go in sight. Those bastards are clever.

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        • #5
          From how they've treated David and my buddy Holden and the handling of the Zak dealio... I mean I can't say i won't ever buy another Onyx Path book, but damn if that's not a tempting arrangement right now.


          A Green Sun Destrier

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          • #6
            Looks like it may just be GURPS and Shadowrun for me, at least until OPP/white wolf gets it's act together.


            My Savannah Setting can be found here

            My heroes as monster tamers rules can be found here

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            • #7
              Originally posted by The young man in the cafe View Post
              Looks like it may just be GURPS and Shadowrun for me, at least until OPP/white wolf gets it's act together.
              Not to distract from this thread, but Shadowrun treats their freelancers pretty fucking awfully; there was a whole embezzling scandal that was never resolved, and the situation with pay was so bad that the Eclipse Phase people bought their own rights back from the main company in order to go independent.


              Just call me Lex.

              Female pronouns for me, please.

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              • #8
                Well, as I've stated several times on my Monday Meeting Notes, we really don't intend or like to delve into the details on decisions about changes on creative teams. But seriously, do you really think we wanted to make the calls to go back into projects at the stages we have had to and put together whole new teams of writers and developers?

                Our pay rates are not secret and are hardly out of line for the tabletop RPG biz - some companies pay more, and a lot more pay less. Plus, in January we revised, upward, writers' pay per word rates and changed entirely our developer pay methods in order to more fairly compensate our devs for all the work they do. Are these rates what all the talented people truly deserve? No, they are what we can pay and continue publishing in this tiny little corner of the publishing business.

                As for not getting paid- if any freelancer has not been paid, they should contact me right now at richt@theonyxpath.com. Seriously, mistakes happen, but I've been getting freelancers paid for 25 years and I'm not going to stop now.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by atamajakki View Post

                  Not to distract from this thread, but Shadowrun treats their freelancers pretty fucking awfully; there was a whole embezzling scandal that was never resolved, and the situation with pay was so bad that the Eclipse Phase people bought their own rights back from the main company in order to go independent.
                  From what I can tell, Atlas seems to have a pretty good reputation. I'm also diving into reading Greg Stolze's Reign and Unknown Armies, which are both pretty phenomenal. That latter one has a few familiar WW/OPP freelancers other than Stolze, of course.


                  Mage: the Awakening 2E - Hogwarts: the Wizarding World Chronicle
                  Mummy: the Curse - Lightweight 2E Conversion; Disciples of Duat

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by atamajakki View Post

                    Not to distract from this thread, but Shadowrun treats their freelancers pretty fucking awfully; there was a whole embezzling scandal that was never resolved, and the situation with pay was so bad that the Eclipse Phase people bought their own rights back from the main company in order to go independent.
                    Well then just GURPS for me then. It's the only one you really need anyway.


                    My Savannah Setting can be found here

                    My heroes as monster tamers rules can be found here

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                    • #11
                      Never was a fan of David Hill. He's a decent writer, but I simply can't stand him as a person, his views on law enforcement, and the way he interacts with people. He writes negatively about the people he works with, throws shade at the company who employs him, finds himself fired, and then wonders why?

                      If this happened in just about any occupation, the same thing would occur. He's probably better off going into business for himself.

                      I certainly can understand your decision, however, Atamajakki. And I respect it. I'd do the same if I felt strongly about something. Which is why I don't buy Hill's products.

                      To me, though? Onyx Path simply puts out too many amazing products by too many quality individuals to let one person's drama sway me from buying their products. I'm sure there's plenty of products that Hill is working on where he'd love your support.
                      Last edited by Fat Larry; 04-12-2017, 02:47 PM.


                      PENTEX SUCKS.

                      I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Octavo View Post

                        From what I can tell, Atlas seems to have a pretty good reputation. I'm also diving into reading Greg Stolze's Reign and Unknown Armies, which are both pretty phenomenal. That latter one has a few familiar WW/OPP freelancers other than Stolze, of course.
                        Stolze is a gift. I think I said "he could shoot me in the gut and I'd thank him for it" on my blog the other day. UA3 has been a delight to read so far and has had some surprisingly great trans representation in it.

                        Originally posted by Fat Larry View Post
                        Never was a fan of David Hill. He's a decent writer, but I simply can't stand him as a person, his views on law enforcement, and the way he interacts with people. He writes negatively about the people he works with, throws shade at the company who employs him, finds himself fired, and then wonders why?

                        If this happened in just about any occupation, the same thing would occur. He's probably better off going into business for himself.

                        I certainly can understand your decision, however, Atamajakki. And I respect it. I'd do the same if I felt strongly about something. Which is why I don't buy Hill's products.

                        To me, though? Onyx Path simply puts out too many amazing products by too many quality individuals to let one person's drama sway me from buying their products. I'm sure there's plenty of products that Hill is working on where he'd love your support.
                        Suit yourself. He's said nothing I've disagreed with over the years and has consistently put out emotionally important material to me; it would surprise me if Changeling 2e is no longer going to be the amazing survivor allegory it was shaping up to me, and that's a travesty in my eues.


                        Just call me Lex.

                        Female pronouns for me, please.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by atamajakki View Post

                          Stolze is a gift. I think I said "he could shoot me in the gut and I'd thank him for it" on my blog the other day. UA3 has been a delight to read so far and has had some surprisingly great trans representation in it.



                          Suit yourself. He's said nothing I've disagreed with over the years and has consistently put out emotionally important material to me; it would surprise me if Changeling 2e is no longer going to be the amazing survivor allegory it was shaping up to me, and that's a travesty in my eues.

                          Stolze is a fantastic writer, as an aside. There are a number of great writers who've worked for OP/WW in the past that went on to become famous. Chuck Wendig is another one.

                          Anyways, I get it Lex. I do. As an athlete, there are a ton of people and companies that I refuse to do business with because of who they are and what they represent. There are 7 billion people on this planet. We're not going to get along with everyone.

                          I just hope that after some time, you do find it in your heart to come back to the fold.

                          Deviant is looking fantastic, for example. And since I know(think?) you're a huge fan of the CoD, Dark Eras 2 will likely be just as fantastic as Dark Eras 1 is. : )


                          PENTEX SUCKS.

                          I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

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                          • #14
                            Best of luck to you, Lex. I hope you find games you enjoy and have a fun time playing them.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by RichT View Post
                              Well, as I've stated several times on my Monday Meeting Notes, we really don't intend or like to delve into the details on decisions about changes on creative teams. But seriously, do you really think we wanted to make the calls to go back into projects at the stages we have had to and put together whole new teams of writers and developers?

                              Our pay rates are not secret and are hardly out of line for the tabletop RPG biz - some companies pay more, and a lot more pay less. Plus, in January we revised, upward, writers' pay per word rates and changed entirely our developer pay methods in order to more fairly compensate our devs for all the work they do. Are these rates what all the talented people truly deserve? No, they are what we can pay and continue publishing in this tiny little corner of the publishing business.

                              As for not getting paid- if any freelancer has not been paid, they should contact me right now at richt@theonyxpath.com. Seriously, mistakes happen, but I've been getting freelancers paid for 25 years and I'm not going to stop now.
                              I hope this is all a big misunderstanding and that I'm just foolishly getting sucked into a dispute that's none of my business. I want to support companies who treat their people well, and it's disturbing to hear that co-developers are splitting small checks and each making something like $.75 a word as a result. I'm glad to hear that pay has been boosted.


                              Mage: the Awakening 2E - Hogwarts: the Wizarding World Chronicle
                              Mummy: the Curse - Lightweight 2E Conversion; Disciples of Duat

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