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  • #16
    I think $.75 cents a word would be a lot, especially for 10-30 thousand word entries. Freelancing advice suggests pay is between .10 and 1.00 a word. I have to imagine the 1.00 a word is for much smaller bites or larger industries, like a 1,500 word article in a big periodical. Consumer Reports apparently does between 1 and 1.50 per word, but that's with articles limited to 1,000 words. The Wall Street Journal seems to only pay .50 a word.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by nofather View Post
      I think $.75 cents a word would be a lot, especially for 10-30 thousand word entries. Freelancing advice suggests pay is between .10 and 1.00 a word. I have to imagine the 1.00 a word is for much smaller bites or larger industries, like a 1,500 word article in a big periodical. Consumer Reports apparently does between 1 and 1.50 per word, but that's with articles limited to 1,000 words. The Wall Street Journal seems to only pay .50 a word.

      Exactly. Especially in the RPG industry which is not exactly what one would call "healthy." Onyx Path is not Marvel/Disney. They have to make business decisions that will enable their company to continue to produce great products and at the same time keep their employees happy. It's not easy.


      PENTEX SUCKS.

      I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
        Not to distract from this thread, but Shadowrun treats their freelancers pretty fucking awfully; there was a whole embezzling scandal that was never resolved, and the situation with pay was so bad that the Eclipse Phase people bought their own rights back from the main company in order to go independent.
        Originally posted by The young man in the cafe View Post
        Well then just GURPS for me then. It's the only one you really need anyway.
        And that's just the BTS stuff with Catalyst Game Labs and the Shadowrun brand.

        Then there's the stuff regarding the recent Shadowrun products themselves: putting out rushed, typo-ridden products, errata either taking forever to get pushed if errata even gets considered at all (which it often isn't), terrible communication with customers/fans regarding products' progress and their release, and overall toxic behavior and interactions between said fans and their writers. Then there's the Shadowrun tactical miniatures game and board game that still haven't been released, despite being announced as far back as 2012, but where updates suddenly stopped in 2014 . With the reason given being that they've been unable to secure manufacturing deals to make all the physical materials.

        (...even though CGL is also the current holder of the Battletech license, a game franchise that's exclusively known for being a miniatures game...yeah...)

        ...yeah I left the Shadowrun community for a reason.

        While I don't entirely agree with atamajakki's reasons for leaving, I can sympathize with the sentiments.
        Last edited by tasti man LH; 04-12-2017, 03:37 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by RichT View Post
          Are these rates what all the talented people truly deserve? No, they are what we can pay and continue publishing in this tiny little corner of the publishing business.
          I think a lot of us agreed with that when it came to Exalted, the community was pretty happy with the backer levels that would give the writers a bit of a pay boost. However I've heard reports that they never received that bonus, and was kinda curious whether there's any truth to that?

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          • #20
            I was disturbed today by the aforementioned twitter conversations which seem to have multiple pretty specific examples of bad behavior. I'm not sure what to say but I find it very disappointing.
            Last edited by Piff; 04-12-2017, 04:38 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by FluffySquirrel View Post

              I think a lot of us agreed with that when it came to Exalted, the community was pretty happy with the backer levels that would give the writers a bit of a pay boost. However I've heard reports that they never received that bonus, and was kinda curious whether there's any truth to that?
              The devs prepare the pay sheets that are sent in, and Holden and I specifically spoke about them including the pay bumps. If that didn't happen, perhaps he should message any one of us about it.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by FluffySquirrel View Post

                I think a lot of us agreed with that when it came to Exalted, the community was pretty happy with the backer levels that would give the writers a bit of a pay boost. However I've heard reports that they never received that bonus, and was kinda curious whether there's any truth to that?

                Do you folks know how pay is processed at Onyx Path?

                (It's rhetorical; if you know, great, if not, read on.)

                Every writer is supposed to have a contract for each project, which details HOW MUCH and WHAT they get paid. For example, let's take my contract for, say, Werewolf: The Apocalypse Revised (so this would have been...what, 1999, about? 2000?). At the time, I was making 4 cents a word. I was contracted to writing something like 30,000 words, so I was getting a flat fee of $1200. With me so far? That's the HOW MUCH.

                As for the WHEN, I'm pretty sure that back then my contracts worked on a "50% on final draft, 50% on publication" kind of model (there were a few different models and which one you were on depended on how much work you had done for WW and whether they considered you reliable; WW Rev was only my third project). So I'd get $600 when I turned in my final draft and the other $600 when the book was published.

                Ah, but how would Rebecca (who was White Wolf's accounts payable person) know to pay me? My developer (Ethan Skemp, on this particular project) would send in a PAY SCHEDULE, telling Rebecca HOW MUCH to pay me and WHERE to send it.

                So, nowadays, this process is pretty similar. The pay schedules get sent in a pdf instead of in an email, there's an option to be paid via Paypal, but otherwise, that's how it works.

                Now, as a thought exercise, I want you to go through that process and see if you figure out where it could break down, and who's fault that would be. Go ahead, I'll be here all week.
                Last edited by blackhatmatt; 04-12-2017, 04:37 PM.


                Matthew McFarland
                Writer, developer, etc.

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                • #23
                  Wow I just went through that exchange, kind of hard to get through.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by blackhatmatt View Post
                    Now, as a thought exercise, I want you to go through that process and see if you figure out where it could break down, and who's fault that would be. Go ahead, I'll be here all week.
                    I'm not sure I'm parsing this. Are you suggesting that in some way Holden was responsible by not asking for payment correctly? Not only do I find that difficult to believe, it seems to ignore the fact that several individuals on the twitter spoke of having very similar issues. Are they all failing to fill out pay schedules properly, I suppose, is the implication?

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                    • #25
                      Not to derail the thread too much but I've always been curious as to the breakdown of funds from a kickstarter. How does a quarter to half a million dollar pie get sliced?

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                      • #26
                        We outside the conversation on Twitter and elsewhere are witnesses to only one side of a grievance. The other side is maintaining confidentiality about the entire thing. We can have a decent degree of faith that Onyx Path wouldn't have removed a contracted developer without a good reason. It's pointless to spout conjecture when you're only ever going to see one side of this episode.


                        Matthew Dawkins
                        Freelance Writer and Developer for Onyx Path Publishing

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                        • #27
                          So your saying they are breaching some sort of nda?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by BurritoMage View Post
                            So your saying they are breaching some sort of nda?
                            Not at all. I'm saying one person says they were wronged, and the other party is keeping its reasons for that individual's dismissal private, as most responsible employers would.


                            Matthew Dawkins
                            Freelance Writer and Developer for Onyx Path Publishing

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
                              Not at all. I'm saying one person says they were wronged, and the other party is keeping its reasons for that individual's dismissal private, as most responsible employers would.
                              As I understand it, David left of his own volition.

                              I mean, it's still understandable that Onyx Path would want to keep private their side of the story, but this isn't exactly a termination of employment so much as David quitting.


                              Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                              My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                                As I understand it, David left of his own volition.

                                I mean, it's still understandable that Onyx Path would want to keep private their side of the story, but this isn't exactly a termination of employment so much as David quitting.
                                As you understand it, yes. But according to David in his most recent Facebook post, OPP had a new developer lined up for several months, and was indeed keeping the project in development despite the developer being finished with the project and having his final draft turned in.

                                In other words, OPP had terminated him months before his actual leave, or must have somehow been planning for him to leave months in advance. David had zero intention of leaving until they hired his stalker Zak S, and left OPP because WW hired his stalker Zak S. He left because of Zak S. It was a sudden kind of thing, not a thing talked over for months.

                                That's the controversy.

                                Edit: also, since I have yet to comment in thread otherwise, here are my thoughts:

                                1) some shady shit up in this thing

                                2) I will go on missing AtamajakkI forever, it seems.

                                3) I am deeply concerned about all of this and will be keeping my eye on it, but I've already decided I'm supporting OPP so I'm already trash and not going to change my mind over a dev (even my favorite dev) getting fired. I've already done the "leave dirt bag company to support brave independent dev" thing before and got burned by it, hard. I'm just gonna keep supporting companies and independent devs alike.
                                Last edited by RomulusGloriosus; 04-12-2017, 05:49 PM.

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