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  • Politics Question.

    Hey guys,i need some help. I've been for a long time someone who avoided anything political at all costs,mostly because i thought it wouldn't affect me and it was pretty sad stuff. I've changed my mind about that,so i'm asking quetions trying to understand the basic of the political scenario today. could any of you guysme explain,what exactly is a nationalist? is it someone who wants their country to not trade with others,is it another world for xenophobia?
    Last edited by Nicolas Milioni; 04-19-2017, 03:59 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
    is it someone who wants their country to not trade with others,is it another world for xenophobia?
    Their country should be the first priority and there shouldn't be outside influences from other countries, such as treaties you may have signed in the past that affect how the country works, perhaps negatively. The immigration thing, generally, yes. There's usually a national identity tied to nationalism, so it's not just 'citizens' of the nation, it's 'true citizens' of a nation, who tend to fit into that identity.

    There are positive aspects of nationalism, of course. There's nothing wrong with being a patriot or proud of your country.

    To be fair there's a lot of aspects to it, and I'm sure someone else will describe it in more depth and accuracy, but at the basis it's putting the nation first, fullstop.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by nofather View Post

      Their country should be the first priority and there shouldn't be outside influences from other countries, such as treaties you may have signed in the past that affect how the country works, perhaps negatively. The immigration thing, generally, yes. There's usually a national identity tied to nationalism, so it's not just 'citizens' of the nation, it's 'true citizens' of a nation, who tend to fit into that identity.

      There are positive aspects of nationalism, of course. There's nothing wrong with being a patriot or proud of your country.

      To be fair there's a lot of aspects to it, and I'm sure someone else will describe it in more depth and accuracy, but at the basis it's putting the nation first, fullstop.
      that's makes sense. i'm assuming the natinalist everyone is complaining about must be the bad ones

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
        that's makes sense. i'm assuming the natinalist everyone is complaining about must be the bad ones
        Likely. Germany's Nazism was National Socialism and spawned from nationalist ideals that, because the nation is so great, deserve to be spread to other countries, and the whole world. While this was happening, the country would rid itself of people who didn't fit the national identity, doing what they could to get rid of them or sending them to concentration camps. Japan acted similarly.

        Those are the big nationalisms in recent history that people are likely to mean when they refer to nationalism in a bad way. But nationalism on its own isn't an inherently bad thing. It's just something that has been taken to horrifying extremes.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
          could any of you guysme explain,what exactly is a nationalist?
          This may be more in depth than you want.


          What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
          Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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          • #6
            If you're interested in doing the intellectual work, Imagined Communities by Benedict Anderson is a seminal text for the study of Nationalism. If you read it you'll have a very strong sense of theory and how it informs the modern day, though you should try to investigate the specific circumstances of a given Nationalism to best understand the situation that produced it.

            Imagined Communities


            Leetsepeak's Ex3 Homebrew Hub - Hub of homebrew for Exalted 3rd Edition that I've made.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by nofather View Post

              Their country should be the first priority and there shouldn't be outside influences from other countries, such as treaties you may have signed in the past that affect how the country works, perhaps negatively. The immigration thing, generally, yes. There's usually a national identity tied to nationalism, so it's not just 'citizens' of the nation, it's 'true citizens' of a nation, who tend to fit into that identity.

              There are positive aspects of nationalism, of course. There's nothing wrong with being a patriot or proud of your country.

              To be fair there's a lot of aspects to it, and I'm sure someone else will describe it in more depth and accuracy, but at the basis it's putting the nation first, fullstop.
              That's quite sensible and I'd agree with that.

              One thing I might add that it's frequently an excuse for the local government's members and their circle of influence and cronies to basically do what they want without external control or critique. Be the big fish in a small pond. At least that's what I see in Hungary.


              If nothing worked, then let's think!

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              • #8
                Nationalism is one of those aspects of politics that isn't a black-or-white distinction. Indeed it touches most aspects of politics in the modern era because most of what we think of as "countries" are conceived of and organized along nationalist lines. Nationalism in its most basic form holds that your "nation," a group of people with shared characteristics and identification, carries a distinctness that is not only positive in itself but which is also worthy of being protected from things which could threaten it either materially or memetically. Any time someone takes pride in their heritage or engages in patriotic behavior or views the world in terms of threats from those who are different they are engaging in a species of nationalism. These are not in and of themselves good or bad. Indeed its rare for any politician to use rhetoric entirely devoid of nationalism. At some level most of us have some amount of group identification that we care about and don't want to see threatened. The United States has always had an awkward relationship with nationalism and it often appears in two different stripes. There's the anti-immigrant variety which views itself as a nation which must be protected from outsiders who will dilute or corrupt the culture and values that it lionizes. Alternatively there is also the E Plurbus Unum variety which enjoins people to accept outsiders under the umbrella of a shared nationality the subsumes and supercedes others. These are often opposed to one another, but both are forms of nationalism. Indeed one can observe nationalism both of a nation and within a nation as different groups identify both as members of a larger nation and as members of a cultural group within a nation, seeking to promote the interests of their nation globally and also their own group within that nation.

                On the topic of trade nationalism typically involves the belief that trade should be beneficial to your nation exclusively. At a basic level this makes sense, but trade is complex with a lot of give and take and hidden costs and benefits. There is also the question of which groups with a nation benefit from trade and which are harmed by it. The current version of nationalism vis a vis trade generally expresses the belief that their respective nations are not getting a good deal and wish to either forcefully renegotiate the status of trade to be more beneficial to them or to withdraw from trade agreements entirely, "going it alone" as it were. This in turn comes back to the belief that a nations distinctiveness is in itself a positive, exceptional even. That on its own it will naturally succeed because of this quality, or at the least that going it alone is better than an arrangement which it does not perceive as benefiting it.

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                • #9
                  i see! thanks guys

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                  • #10
                    If you want a really simple comic description of the differences...


                    Odd_Canuck is not a topical medication or food product and is not to be taken internally or seriously.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Odd_Canuck View Post
                      If you want a really simple comic description of the differences...
                      wow... damn....

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                        Hey guys,i need some help. I've been for a long time someone who avoided anything political at all costs,mostly because i thought it wouldn't affect me and it was pretty sad stuff. I've changed my mind about that,so i'm asking quetions trying to understand the basic of the political scenario today. could any of you guysme explain,what exactly is a nationalist? is it someone who wants their country to not trade with others,is it another world for xenophobia?
                        First, keep in mind that Nationalism is not necessarily the same thing as Nazism. While the Nazi's were Nationalists, not all Nationalists are Nazis.

                        Like most political ideals, Nationalism can very easily go wrong. In it's raw form it's essentially about putting your own nation first and with a heavy focus on creating and pushing for a single national character. On the surface Nationalism isn't innately bad, and I think there are some important points. For example, having a shared culture and a shared language is pretty important to the long-term survival of a nation. If people don't believe the same basic things and can't even understand one another, I don't think it's possible for them to create a long lasting nation.

                        One of the core ideas in Nationalism is that the well-being of the citizens is reflecting in the well-being of the nation. If a nation is doing well, then the citizens will be doing well. If the nation is doing poorly, then the citizens will have a much rougher time. By making the country a "better place to live" you'll improve the lives of the people who live there. Nationalism tends to focus fairly heavily on public and cultural infrastructure.

                        The problem you run into with Nationalism is that some Nationalists want to stamp all of the differences between individuals, rather than accept that sometimes those differences can be good. This gets especially bad when Nationalism gets combined with racial ideology. This changes from focusing on a single nation, to instead focusing on a single racial group. Instead of "My country is awesome," you end up with, "My race is awesome and people who aren't members of my race are ruining my country." Again though, you'll find assholes who have twisted Capitalism, Communism, and virtually every other type of political or economic philosophy.

                        There is a branch of Nationalism, called Civic Nationalism (or Liberal Nationalism) which rejects many of the more negative ideas of Nationalism, especially racial Nationalism. Civic Nationalism basically posits that a country, especially a democratic country, needs for the citizens and leaders to have a national identity and with shared goals. When you start seeing different groups with radically different values who can't communicate or agree on basic ideals, it's like trying to herd cats and eventually Democracy simply be able to function anymore.

                        Ultimately Nationalists are fine with things like trade and whatnot, it's just that they believe that their nation should come first and shouldn't be making lopsided deals that end up favoring other countries at the expense of their own.
                        Last edited by AnubisXy; 04-20-2017, 05:05 PM.

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