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  • #16
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    In last two weeks we have Nationalism issue in Poland. Our country since two years is ruled by National Socialist government party PiS ( ang. 'Law & Justice' ) - But PiS also is not true Nazis, like in Germany in 1930s, just coming from the same ideological root, without going extreme - at least for now. PiS just ruled in new law that "Defamation of the Polish nation" will make you pay fines and make it impossible to use the term "Polish death camps". Its critics, including the governments of Israel, the USA, Canada and Ukraine, believe that it will limit the discussion about the legacy of World War II. Even if all Poles agree that "Polish death camps" is an unfortunate term about geography that misrepresent reality and should not be used in public debate - those criticizing states and Polish citizens - even me - are afraid that it will be impossible to speak about individual cases of violence by unworthy individualists in the entire Polish nation Second World War. Nationalists are pushing in Poland so that it can not be said that even one Pole could have hurt someone during WW2 - that is simply untrue. Even when we had number of heroes in WW2 and our Underground State helped to save Jews from Holocaust.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the phrase "Polish death camp" originally coined by Jan Karski?

    If that is true, I find it odd that the present Polish government rejects the words of a national hero.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by semicasual View Post
      Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the phrase "Polish death camp" originally coined by Jan Karski?

      If that is true, I find it odd that the present Polish government rejects the words of a national hero.
      It maybe, but not everything that national hero say is good. For example, our CCCP time opposition leader and first free elected President of III Polish Republic ( i.e. modern Poland country ) Lech Wałęsa almost 5 years back said that 'place of gays in Sejm ( Polish Parliament ) is behind wall, not in the house of it'. So as LGBT+ Polish democrat myself, I have problem using Wałęsa as icon of democratic opposition on now nation wide protests against PiS laws. Even with almost everyone else use him as symbol of liberty from oppression in country.

      "Polish death camps" are just wrong sentence - camps were not made or run by Poles - they were created by Nazis on terrain of Poland. I know best - I was living for 3 years just one kilometer from Majdanek camp in Lublin - returning to apartment every day passing it. My uncle is buried in communal cemetery just right next to death camp museum. Each week I saw groups of Isreal students on pilgrimage to place of Holocaust. It's terrifying - but we must not forget about this tragedy.
      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-06-2018, 01:39 PM.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
        "Polish death camps" are just wrong sentence - camps were not made or run by Poles - they were created by Nazis on terrain of Poland.
        I don't mean to offend you, but I'm curious about how this phrase translates into Polish.

        In English, "Polish death camp" is an ambiguous phrase. It could imply one of several things:
        • Poles own the death camp (Adjective - Polish [people] , Noun - death camp),
        • The death camp is in Poland (Adjective - Polish [country], Noun - death camp),
        • The death camp contains Poles (Noun - Polish, Noun - death camp),
        • It is a camp for Polish deaths (Noun - Polish death, Noun - camp).
        In context, I think most English-speakers would assume the 2nd or 3rd definition. The 4th definition is grammatically strange and the 1st definition doesn't hold up under scrutiny.


        On the frontier of the Wild South, there's only one woman with the grit to take on its most dangerous outlaws and bring them Back Alive, or Maybe Dead.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Odd_Canuck View Post
          If you want a really simple comic description of the differences...

          Originally posted by Shadowflame View Post
          I believe this was said best:

          The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war.
          I think that handles it.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by semicasual View Post
            I don't mean to offend you, but I'm curious about how this phrase translates into Polish.

            In English, "Polish death camp" is an ambiguous phrase. It could imply one of several things:
            • Poles own the death camp (Adjective - Polish [people] , Noun - death camp),
            • The death camp is in Poland (Adjective - Polish [country], Noun - death camp),
            • The death camp contains Poles (Noun - Polish, Noun - death camp),
            • It is a camp for Polish deaths (Noun - Polish death, Noun - camp).
            All are correct interpretation from the language meaning side - it's unclear and depends on context - only 1st is most 'correct' in Polish translation and most direct.

            Originally posted by semicasual View Post
            In context, I think most English-speakers would assume the 2nd or 3rd definition. The 4th definition is grammatically strange and the 1st definition doesn't hold up under scrutiny.
            Topics like those should not be 'assumed' - they should be clearly said. Or, at least, fixed by press rectification if happens. It's consensus in Poland, really, no one is it undermining this. Only the opposition - my included - says that stoping people to talk about other evil actions of individuals in society is doing dishonor to the reality and whitewashing our history. Germany's Ministry of Foreign Affairs yasterday made a statement it's their country forefathers are responsible for whole Holocaust - and our PiS government want's to put fines on people point there were some individuals in WW2 Polish society that were villains, not the heroes rest of our country was. It's irrational and hurting to reality thinking about history.
            Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-06-2018, 04:26 PM.


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            • #21
              All above written by Wyrdhamster is true. All of it. I can add that many of Jews killed in death camps were polish citizens. They died with Poles in the same chambers. Both were victims of sick ideology.and monsters in human skins. I visited Aushiwitz camp last year and it was shocking and very disturbing. The pictures, the place, the story told by former victim of camp, what was striking - everyone was equal in german eyes - priest, Jew, worker, child - they all were sentenced to death. Read about Gerhard Palitzsch. This mot...er for example took a family and killed 4 year child in mother arms, then mother, next young son and father at the end who had to look at his familly death. The thing is that many of those monsters run away and died without trial - I'm talking about Mengele for example - very sick bastard.

              And about the mess in WWII times. Did Poles killed Jews? Yes. Did Jews killed Poles? Yes. Did Jews killed Jews - yes. Not the nations were guilty. But individuals. And everyone have rights to speak about that. No doubt. But ,,Polish death camps"? Seriously....?

              And about our ruling party PiS - they are changing their front in many opinions (from right wingers to centrals) but after all they are and it seems always were National Socialist, the trick was they are called right wingers by media and society blindly belives that. In my opinion they were chosen because they declared that they won't open country borders to African immigrants. And that worked. The political opposition made to many mistakes and I think that Wyrdhamster could tell more about their voting for woman rights example. There are three big factions in my opinion that are wrestling with each other, making our country weaker. Pro Israel/USA (funny but it's the current ruling option), Pro Russian (they are strictly connected to polish agriculture and villages) and pro German/EU (opposition). As it's above I don't see any faction concentrated on our needs, only vassals of foreigns powers. Ant what's not funny most of them are turning to chinese money.

              The mess is strictly connected to current Justice for Uncompensated Survivors act. And the tention will rise cause there's prepared counter act.



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              • #22
                As incorrect as the sentence "Polish death camps" may be, the point is rather undermined if people protesting it show examples of virulent, open anti-semitism. Which many Polish people are doing. The government manages to keep it vague, at least, for all the good it does. Not so much the citizens. Particularly the nazi-sympathizing white nationalists who have been growing bolder for the past two years.

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                • #23
                  Well, I agree with everything werewolf43 wrote. Almost.

                  Originally posted by werewolf43 View Post
                  And about our ruling party PiS - they are changing their front in many opinions (from right wingers to centrals) but after all they are and it seems always were National Socialist, the trick was they are called right wingers by media and society blindly belives that.
                  National Socialists ARE Right Wingers - becuase most fundamntal values they represent are conservative, in the end - even if the do 'reforms' all around. It's no wonder that churches - like Catholic Church - is supporting National Socialists parties - like PiS or even German Nazis in 1930s. National Socialists are Nationalists - and those are 'traditional' in view and values.

                  I have great article on relations between Church and Left movements - i.e. conflicts, that put's supporting traditional religion is most often Right philosophy. Sadly, it's in Polish only. The only moment Church was supporting Left was direct Reformation movements, in XV and XVI century.


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                  • #24
                    In my opinion there is a a tention inside polish catholic church mostly cause of new doctrines and ideas announced by current pope. Is the church supporting current goverment? They are trying to support ruling party when it fits. Like always. And here's another break from the main political line - priest Rydzyk and his radio and tv stations who always support PiS.
                    National Socialists are Right Wingers - I guess you're right. But thier fundamental values, conservative ones, would change sonner then we expect. Sofltly with every month. Just wait and see. Why? Cause they exchanged conservatives for former (?!) Left wingers, and I dont think they are former .... It's getting much more weird then I thought It will be. And the main strong line like minister of defence and premier are off the main board. New minister of defence is slowly cleaning decisions made by former, new premier is in pockets of chinese or EU I'm not sure now which.

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