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    Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
    You can see it in the Shield Cantrip too. That’s sort of a purer form of the same power. One action to ready the Reaction, which you can use to reduce some damage, and then you can’t do it again for 10 minutes. Here it’s an actual cooldown, but the immersion crowd is ok with it because it’s on a spell. But functionally, it’s the same thing. Oh, and it can work on magic missile, to throw the nostalgia crowd a bone.
    This is an intersting topic. I think we've got accustomed to magic being tied to a resource, be it mana points, slots, cooldown, whatever. It balances it, to some extent. I remember how big a surprise it was back then, when I realized that in Mage the Ascension, you don't exactly need Quintessence for casting, most of the time, it just makes it better. Magic tied to risk management, instead of resource management, is not exactly a new idea, Mage is not a new game and Shadowrun did it even earlier. But we've seen a lot more example of magic tied to a resource, we even see it in things like animes, like Naruto, where characters could deplete their "chakra" and so on. We've seen it in countless video games.

    To be true, it's not less artificial, than daily and encounter martial powers. I think the system that would be the best for tying the two together and present the thing in a "realistic" way would be one that counts stamina for both, in some way. That's still resource management, but a flexible one, if done right. Or, it could measure tiredness in another, less bean-counting way. Regardless, I think I'd like a system where it doesn't matter if you swing a sword, or casting spells, you're getting tired and your perfomrance decreases.


    If nothing worked, then let's think!

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    • I do wonder what other classes will get here. If anything. They said that fighters will get keywords like "Open", "Close" and the like to make their abilities not spammable. I'm sceptical, since when you dig deep enough, everything can be construed as arbitrary, but never mind that. What about rogues, barbarians, monks and rangers, the other four classes without any magic or magic-like abilities (the monks' ki abilities are optional so they still count)? Will they get their own ways of ensuring their abilities have to be used with tactical thinking? What we've seen so far doesn't really suggest that. Stunning Fist just has a bunch of fiddly random conditions and rogue feats seem to just use reactions or are entirely passive.

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      • Originally posted by PMárk View Post
        However, what happens when you use a magical shield? I assume those won't get "dented"?
        I’m pretty sure they will, they’ll just have significantly higher hardness. They mentioned in the magic item blog that some magic shields have hardness as high as 18. But I imagine by the time you can get such hard shields, 18 damage will be a similar proportion of your HP as 5 is early on.


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        • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
          I’m pretty sure they will, they’ll just have significantly higher hardness. They mentioned in the magic item blog that some magic shields have hardness as high as 18. But I imagine by the time you can get such hard shields, 18 damage will be a similar proportion of your HP as 5 is early on.
          Hmmm, okay, I dimly remeber that, it's just, in the earlier system, magic stuff didn't get broke.


          If nothing worked, then let's think!

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          • Originally posted by Morty View Post
            I do wonder what other classes will get here. If anything. They said that fighters will get keywords like "Open", "Close" and the like to make their abilities not spammable. I'm sceptical, since when you dig deep enough, everything can be construed as arbitrary, but never mind that. What about rogues, barbarians, monks and rangers, the other four classes without any magic or magic-like abilities (the monks' ki abilities are optional so they still count)? Will they get their own ways of ensuring their abilities have to be used with tactical thinking? What we've seen so far doesn't really suggest that. Stunning Fist just has a bunch of fiddly random conditions and rogue feats seem to just use reactions or are entirely passive.
            I wouldn’t count on many effective encounter or daily abilities. The rogue does have an effective 1/encounter free sneak attack (due to treating enemies that haven’t acted yet as flat-footed). Most of their abilities though I’m sure will be limited by circumstances, not by resources. Being able to do additional nasty stuff to flat-footed enemies, mostly. Monks will use stances in addition to Ki, and there will definitely be maneuvers tied to stances. Again, that will make them less spammable, but won’t tie them to resources. Also, I don’t think the Open tag does what you think it does. We can see from Valeros’ sheet that Open means you can only use it if you haven’t used an action with the Attack or Open keyword this turn. So you can use one Open move every turn as long as you use it before making any other attacks. Barbarians I’m sure will have abilities they can only use in and/or out of rage. Rangers I’m sure will have abilities they can only use on the target of their Hunt Target.


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            • Originally posted by PMárk View Post

              Hmmm, okay, I dimly remeber that, it's just, in the earlier system, magic stuff didn't get broke.
              True. Maybe it will become dented but not broken?


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              • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                True. Maybe it will become dented but not broken?
                Might be. And/or self-repairing over time?


                If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                  I wouldn’t count on many effective encounter or daily abilities. The rogue does have an effective 1/encounter free sneak attack (due to treating enemies that haven’t acted yet as flat-footed). Most of their abilities though I’m sure will be limited by circumstances, not by resources. Being able to do additional nasty stuff to flat-footed enemies, mostly. Monks will use stances in addition to Ki, and there will definitely be maneuvers tied to stances. Again, that will make them less spammable, but won’t tie them to resources. Also, I don’t think the Open tag does what you think it does. We can see from Valeros’ sheet that Open means you can only use it if you haven’t used an action with the Attack or Open keyword this turn. So you can use one Open move every turn as long as you use it before making any other attacks. Barbarians I’m sure will have abilities they can only use in and/or out of rage. Rangers I’m sure will have abilities they can only use on the target of their Hunt Target.
                  Yes, I wasn't talking about encounter or daily abilities - I meant the mechanics that restrict their use without giving them resources. As sceptical as I am of it in general, I like it because it gives you control. Ideally, fighters will open up with one of their "Open" abilities, then use an appropriate "Close" or universal one... and so on. Will other classes have something similar? Rogues, in particular, have always suffered from having all of their abilities be secondary to sneak attack and their tactics being kind of binary.

                  Though I certainly would expect "you can only use this on an enemy with X condition" regardless of class.
                  Last edited by Morty; 07-20-2018, 07:06 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                    Might be. And/or self-repairing over time?
                    I would be super down with that!


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                    • I've compiled something of a list of characters I'm going to create once the PF2e playtest is available:

                      1) A fighter with a bastard sword who wears light armor and whose dexterity is at least as high as his strength. Focusing on mobility, to see if I can do that without being a monk or ranger.

                      2) A goblin rogue with a crossbow to see how hard it is to play a ranged rogue. I like goblins but I loathe Pathfinder goblins; we'll see how it averages out.

                      3) A rogue with a single sword of whatever kind they're allowed to use who doesn't use stealth, focuses on lore, search, awareness and spellcraft skills and magic items. To see how stifling the one and only skill-focused class is this time.

                      4) A ranger with a two-handed axe and a pet. This one is probably the easiest, really, but I feel like recreating it.

                      5) A dwarf ranger with a crossbow. It's basically my 5E rogue I abandoned due to being dull, but her concept works just as well with a ranger now that they have no magic by default. I also want to see two things: if it's possible to make a ranger who attacks once a turn without wasting her main feature and if a dexterity-focused dwarf character is worth it.

                      More might come in time, I suppose. I like to come up with "oddball" concepts and see if a system can handle them.
                      Last edited by Morty; 07-21-2018, 05:46 PM.

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                      • Sneak attack explicitly works with ranged attacks, so ranged rogue at least should be viable.


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                        • It explicitly worked with ranged attacks in 3e/PF1e too, but making targets qualify for it was still a giant pain in the rear. You had to stay within 30 feet, you couldn't flank... I want to see how easy or hard it is in PF2e. 5e makes it refreshingly easy, but in the process makes ranged rogues arguably better than melee ones.

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                          • Starting to get really excited for the monday news even though I know I shouldn’t.


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                            • I'm wanting to get back into D&D 5e since it is a good edition and the most current one. Granted, it's one I'm not experienced in compared to 3.5/PF and OSR, but while I own the DMG and the MM, I lent my brother my copy of the Player's Handbook and I still haven't got it back.

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                              • Other "oddball" concepts I could try... melee alchemist, maybe? I remember that compared to the PF1 alchemist it's going to be harder to shoot yourself up with mutagens and go to town, but I'm not sure. They could also use poisons. Either way, something other than the default bomb-throwing.

                                I'd also like to try some fighting styles that have always been studiously ignored. My "investigator" rogue up there has a single sword, but to be fair that's always been an option for rogues if they don't dual-wield. But there's also throwing weapons. Could try that. Is it going to be possible to run a barbarian with ranged weapons? If so, throwing may work.

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