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  • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
    So Cam Banks (who wrote for Dragonlance) has commented about the whole "evil races turned none evil" mess which is going on the social media, and have said that for all of the poeple who say that orcs and their like should be evil, they should take a look in Dragonlance, where since always you could play any race (well, except of draconians, but that changed later), and they could have any alignment, with the freedom to make their own choices.

    Like, there is a part of me that thinks that perhaps one good thing which would come from that mess is that WotC would actually understand that publishing a Dragonlance 5e book could actually be beneficial for them if done right, but I guess it is too optimistic. WotC seem to not like Dragonlance for some reason, as I remmember a lot of tension going on near the end of 3e.
    Eberron’s got non-Evil orcs and goblins prominently featured, and their drow are at least problematic in a different way (as natives for your colonizer assholes to fight on the “exotic jungle adventure” continent).


    Remi. she/her. game designer.

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    • Oh, Eberron is also indeed a good setting in terms of being inclusive, IMO, and so is Critical Role's Exandria (even though I didn't liked the idea where goblinoids are cursed to be evil from birth, and that a ceremony is required to free them from it). The thing is that from my experience in the D&D community a lot of "old school gamers" do not like that WotC presents new settings instead of updating old ones, and Dragonlance is a classic setting which could both satisfy those players and - more importantly - show that D&D always had the option to not protray races as "inheritly evil". Of course, as a big Dragonlance fan I am biased, but I really think that this setting be a great solution to calm the situation, more or less.


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      "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

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      • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
        Critical Role's Exandria (even though I didn't liked the idea where goblinoids are cursed to be evil from birth, and that a ceremony is required to free them from it).
        Yeah, that's a bit of a yikes from me. There's some seriously unfortunate parallels here.

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        • Originally posted by Morty View Post

          Yeah, that's a bit of a yikes from me. There's some seriously unfortunate parallels here.
          There's a scene in Campaign 2 where a half-orc PC has a conversation with a full-blooded orc NPC about the racism they both face... and also the constant call to commit violence that's "in their blood." It reads really, really poorly.


          Remi. she/her. game designer.

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          • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
            Critical Role's Exandria (even though I didn't liked the idea where goblinoids are cursed to be evil from birth, and that a ceremony is required to free them from it).
            Is this mechanically the case? Like, are they cosmically cursed to be evil from birth, and need a ceremony to be freed from it? Or are they told by their society's leaders that they are inherently evil, and a ceremony would have to free them from it? Would the latter be better, it seems a little more realistic even if it means the goblins are basically being tricked into doing evil?

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            • Originally posted by nofather View Post

              Is this mechanically the case? Like, are they cosmically cursed to be evil from birth, and need a ceremony to be freed from it? Or are they told by their society's leaders that they are inherently evil, and a ceremony would have to free them from it? Would the latter be better, it seems a little more realistic even if it means the goblins are basically being tricked into doing evil?
              Goblins and orcs both have a supernatural curse from an Evil god.


              Remi. she/her. game designer.

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              • Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
                There's a scene in Campaign 2 where a half-orc PC has a conversation with a full-blooded orc NPC about the racism they both face... and also the constant call to commit violence that's "in their blood." It reads really, really poorly.
                It's year 2020 and we still blame people for how they were born, apparently. "Sure, we're discriminated against but we really are inherently, inescapably violent" is a heck of a message to send.

                Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
                Goblins and orcs both have a supernatural curse from an Evil god.
                "A god did it" is probably the laziest reason for anything ever in fantasy. At least if it's an evil wizard, you could possibly go and punch that wizard in the face, or undo the spell, or whatever. Acts of deities are just inoperable unless you're playing a very high-level campaign (and in D&D, you really don't want to). It basically puts a deity in the position of the author's thinly-veiled in-universe avatar. Both can say "I want it this way, so it's this way".

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                • Originally posted by nofather View Post

                  Is this mechanically the case? Like, are they cosmically cursed to be evil from birth, and need a ceremony to be freed from it? Or are they told by their society's leaders that they are inherently evil, and a ceremony would have to free them from it? Would the latter be better, it seems a little more realistic even if it means the goblins are basically being tricked into doing evil?
                  Like, to expand on that- the Curse of Ruin (which turns orcs into CE) is not mechanically supported, but is there in the fluff. It is said that orcs suffer from it, but there is nothing in the mechanics which actually forces you to play it- the orc stats are the same as Eberron.

                  In the case of the Curse of Strife and the goblinoids, well, that's a bit more complicated- goblinoids all have tendencies towards being evil, with a Order-to-Chaos part decided by their species. It is outright stated that some life changing event or trauma, such as perhaps being shown great compassion, could break the curse, but if done in older ages the Order-to-Chaos part is left the same most of the time (law for hobgoblins, neutral for goblins, chaotic for bugbears). However, there is a ceremony which can be preformed on young goblinoids which freeds them from the curse all together, but again it must be done when they are still young.

                  So yeah, I personally felt it was very unnecessery. Like, you could say that orcs are corrupted elves and goblinoids are corrupted aincent race which suspiciouly sounds like the irda but called give some other name and I actually won't mind that much (evil gods corrupting other races is a thing, after all, meant to say something about how evil can't create and only corrupt), but saying "those races are forced to evil because their gods cursed them with evil" feels a bit boring, saying the truth.

                  Like, the drow in that setting are not presented to be cursed by Lolth, and so you have a whole none evil civilization of drow, even though Lolth did corrupted them IIRC, so drow do not need to fight some curse but other traditionally evil races need to is something I don't understand.
                  Last edited by LostLight; 06-30-2020, 11:03 AM.


                  My Homebrew Signature

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                  • The thing is, there’s basically no way to explain a people having inborn alignment tendencies (especially tendencies towards evil or chaos) without mirroring rhetoric that has been used to justify real-world racism. Whether the reason is a curse, or degeneracycorruption from another race, or due to some genetic predisposition, all of these explanations have also been used to excuse racism against real-world peoples. Racial alignment tendencies are just never not going to have uncomfortable parallels.


                    Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                    • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                      Unpopular opinion: I really like old school fire-and-forget Vancian magic. I don’t think it’s right for every spellcasting class, but I do think it has its place. Clerics having to decide how many command spells to pray for that day is a little silly, but D&D’s scholarly wizard having to prepare three fireball spells if she wants to cast fireball three times in one day is very fitting. And I like the way that fire-and-forget makes every single use of a spell a limited resource, as opposed to 5e Vancian, where only the spell slot is a resource, and spell preparation is this pointless extra step that you still have to do because it wouldn’t “feel like D&D” otherwise. Either embrace Vancian casting or drop it, but the half-way measure 5e takes is just dumb.
                      Yesssssss
                      I love Vancian magic as a concept and I think there are really cool ways to integrate it into world building. I'm happy I'm not alone in that.

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                      • Originally posted by geeklord1 View Post

                        Yesssssss
                        I love Vancian magic as a concept and I think there are really cool ways to integrate it into world building. I'm happy I'm not alone in that.
                        I wouldn’t be opposed to dropping Vancian casting completely, but I think if they’re going to use it they should go all the way with it. 5e “neo-vancian” has all the clunkiness of Vancian with half the resource management challenge.


                        Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                        • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                          I wouldn’t be opposed to dropping Vancian casting completely, but I think if they’re going to use it they should go all the way with it. 5e “neo-vancian” has all the clunkiness of Vancian with half the resource management challenge.
                          I think one or the other. I like the idea of Sorcerer, Warlock, and Bard dropping it while the Wizard and the Cleric still follow it. Wizards memorizing spells and Clerics memorizing miracles while the others channel in some kind of fashion. Add in that there are lost/hidden miracles and spells so they have to seek power would be kind of fun.

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                          • More double standard in the RPG industry.

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                            • Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                              Happy Pride month.


                              Remi. she/her. game designer.

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                              • So in today's session in the 5e game that I run, the group had the first battle in a tournament where they fought against an Hellfire Engine. The party was almost annihilated, until only 3 characters (out of eight) were left standing, all of their HP is in single digits. That was when the wild magic sorcerer has decided to use his Tides of Chaos feature, and the spell has almost brought the monster into ruin- and then I asked him to roll the Wild Magic table. The result? A fireball, which preety much annihalated everyone on the field.

                                Now, while the Engine is technically immune to fire damage, the fact it was the first time we got Fireball from the table, and the result of the party taking their enemy together with them was so epic, I've decided to let it go. The party (which I think wasn't aware of that part) was so excited from this, that the Rule of Cool certinely took precedence. Overall, it was a very fun session, as the characters moved from being sure they are going to lose miserbly to being so excited that they won against all chance (well, technically it was a tied, but it was still awesome). So yeah, that was a fun game.


                                My Homebrew Signature

                                "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

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