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  • #46
    Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post
    I also dont like that they cant find a non disparaging term for the halfling. An actual name that they would use for themselves would go a long way towards gaining an original identity.
    Hin.

    Yet another reason why I am frequently annoyed at how much WotC have neglected one of the oldest 1st-party settings (Mystara/The Known World); In that setting the halflings had a name for themselves, and a solid (albeit heavily hobbit-inspired) identity.



    Not so noble anymore.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
      and after he left everything started getting a lot less ambitious and a lot safer.
      And that's very true! D&D at this point is like Hollywood, like the mainstream music industry, etc. Hasbro/WotC is a big company and they want to play it safe, thus blandness and regurgitating old stuff.

      EDIT: Here, I found the art that sold me on the big head small foot halfling idea. If we’d gotten a little less of this:


      and a little more of this:


      I would have a lot less regret about having voted in favor of giving Halflings distorted proportions to distinguish them visually from humans.
      The second one is a lot better, I agree! My favorite is the halfling lass showing a map to a human. Although, I was okay with the 3e/Dragonlance-style halflings. I think Paizo does the hobbit-halflings better too.

      Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
      On the topic of 5e smallfolk: why did they ever step away from the wonderful art direction 4e gnomes had? I normally loathe the little buggers, but they were incredible in 4e, and a big part of that was their new look.
      Yeah, 4e had the best gnomes from all the editions and

      Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post
      Tangent, i find what pathfinder did for the gnome (they age by being bored) to be very interesting.
      that too, PF gnomes are quite good, both visually and conceptually. Gnomes in prior 4e editions, I never felt an inclination to play one.

      Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

      Oh my god, I loved the original playtest sorcerer! They were much more of a Gish (hybrid caster/melee fighter), and had an awesome mechanic where the fewer Sorcery Points they had left, the more monsterous features they’d manifest, which would buff their melee combat potential. It was fucking rad, you’d start out as this awkward mage with a greatsword, throw some metamagic-enhanced fireballs, and gradually turn into a dragon-person as you did.

      Unfortunately, it was too different from the 3e Sorcerer, so it didn’t do well in the polls. The consistent feedback they got was “this Class is really cool, but it doesn’t feel like a Sorcerer.”

      EDIT: Found the playtest packet that had that Sorcerer. It also had an early take on the Warlock, which actually seems to have made it through relatively unbowdlerized. Probably because the Class didn't have as much baggage. It's too bad the cool visual effects attached to the Invocations didn't make it.

      https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_-...w?pref=2&pli=1
      I missed this. And we got the final version? Hrmpf. Sad, especially as it's plain the sorc won't get better with the addition of new subclasses really, because the problem is the base class. As I said, IMO, PF has the best version of the sorc, where the bloodline is a really big thing for them, the 5e version feels like a watered-down variant of that. And I don't like that they got metamagic as a class feature instead.

      Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post

      So i've liked the Forgotten realm for a long-time. And for the changes of the 4ed like the spellplague ... dislike is way to strong a word ... more like i became disinterested in the forgotten realms as a result.
      Yeah, agree. I also didn't particularly disliked the 4e FR, some part of it, I genuinely liked. It was just what 4e ultimately was: not bad, just not D&D (and in his case, FR). Kinda what I fear could happen with V5 too, if they take it too far.


      If nothing worked, then let's think!

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      • #48
        4e’a gnome lore (“fae refugees from slavery, fled into our reality and thus more otherworldly and odd”) was such an improvement over the usual. I know it’ll never, ever happen, but I’d love for Points of Light/The Nentir Vale to just becom one of the roster of campaign settings.

        Also, unpopular opinion: as a longtime Realms fan (I got into D&D though a certain drow ranger), I thought the Spellplague and Returned Abeir were awesome ideas, and no more or less crazy than any other Realm Shaking Event. Spellscars are still one of the coolest concepts ever.


        Call me Regina or Lex.

        Female pronouns for me, please.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
          4e’a gnome lore (“fae refugees from slavery, fled into our reality and thus more otherworldly and odd”) was such an improvement over the usual.
          Yeah, conceptually it was really great.

          Also, unpopular opinion: as a longtime Realms fan (I got into D&D though a certain drow ranger),
          Heh, me too. Although, after maybe the thousan orcs arc, Drizzt himself became more like a plot device than a real character. I always liked Jarlaxle and Entreri, but after their own trilogy, I just wanted to read about them a lot more than Drizzt, because Drizzt became stale. Even in his own later books, the supporting cast was far more interesting. Nevertheless, I'll always have a special place in my heart for that drow and his kitty. I'm sad the series ended with Hero, because it was the best book in the series for a long time and it had the potential for a lot of interesting follow-ups. Also I became quite fond of Yvonnel at the end.

          I thought the Spellplague and Returned Abeir were awesome ideas, and no more or less crazy than any other Realm Shaking Event. Spellscars are still one of the coolest concepts ever.
          You know, I didn't have problems with that and agree, spellscars were great. Actually, I even like dragonborn, especially after reading Evans's Farideh series (which is quite good). My main problem was more with the 100 years jump and how profoundly they altered the setting as whole, the gods, the landscape, the plots going on, the cast of important characters, the politics, everything. It just felt like a totally different setting.
          Last edited by PMárk; 11-23-2017, 01:52 AM.


          If nothing worked, then let's think!

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          • #50
            Also, as we mentioned drow, I might add that from some of the rare things I kept favoring FR over PF's Golarion, one is the handling of the drow. Mind, I like their origin-story in PF tremendously, but they just aren't the same without Lolth and the spider-y aesthetics. The bulky, leering-demon-faces-on-everything aesthetics in PF just feels clunky in comparison to the sleek, web-adorned design. I even liked how they got more nuanced and a "player race" over time and not a big fan how Paizo kept them strictly to the underground and as boogeymen only, but I know others are preferring that.

            Also, I think 4e had some of the best drow artworks out there.


            If nothing worked, then let's think!

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            • #51
              Originally posted by PMárk View Post
              Also, as we mentioned drow, I might add that from some of the rare things I kept favoring FR over PF's Golarion, one is the handling of the drow. Mind, I like their origin-story in PF tremendously, but they just aren't the same without Lolth and the spider-y aesthetics. The bulky, leering-demon-faces-on-everything aesthetics in PF just feels clunky in comparison to the sleek, web-adorned design. I even liked how they got more nuanced and a "player race" over time and not a big fan how Paizo kept them strictly to the underground and as boogeymen only, but I know others are preferring that.

              Also, I think 4e had some of the best drow artworks out there.
              Yeah, I'm going to take up for the dissenting opinion here. Part of the reason I like PF's take on the drow is that it's familiar enough to be recognizable but different enough to allow for new archetypes, new ideas, and new stories. Mind you, I don't dislike traditional drow by any stretch of the imagination. I have an entire adventure path set in my head based on colonizing a new territory within the Demonweb Pits. Lolth and the drow pantheon is one of my favourite series of powers in the entire game, and one of the few things that I reliably lift from Forgotten Realms. But I do think that new interpretations of classic villains are important.

              To each their own.


              CofD booklists:
              Beast I Changeling | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Second Chances View Post

                Yeah, I'm going to take up for the dissenting opinion here. Part of the reason I like PF's take on the drow is that it's familiar enough to be recognizable but different enough to allow for new archetypes, new ideas, and new stories. Mind you, I don't dislike traditional drow by any stretch of the imagination. I have an entire adventure path set in my head based on colonizing a new territory within the Demonweb Pits. Lolth and the drow pantheon is one of my favourite series of powers in the entire game, and one of the few things that I reliably lift from Forgotten Realms. But I do think that new interpretations of classic villains are important.

                To each their own.
                Oh, I absolutely agree with you! I didn't mean I don't like PF's drow, I think they done them very well, as a reimagination of classic D&D villains! It's just, I like the classic aesthetics far better and that theme intrinsically tied to Lolth. Also, again, I just like them as not only villains and as active players in the setting. I don't mean Drizzt-like good guys, those are rightly outliers, but I like more nuanced, more "grey" drow and I wish Paizo would do something in that direction. I'd be highly interested to see drow to be a little more integrated into the actual going-ons of Golarion, but I suspect they won't do that. I think, after they did Second Darkness, they reserved themselves to the occasional crunch and generic Darklands-only material, because they think that drow should be just like that, which is a conceptual decision I could respect, even if I'd prefer otherwise. Or because they just want to leave drow-related stuff to WotC (as one of their biggest milking cows), out of professional courtesy and personal friendships, which I could understand too.


                If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                  Oh, I absolutely agree with you! I didn't mean I don't like PF's drow, I think they done them very well, as a reimagination of classic D&D villains! It's just, I like the classic aesthetics far better and that theme intrinsically tied to Lolth. Also, again, I just like them as not only villains and as active players in the setting. I don't mean Drizzt-like good guys, those are rightly outliers, but I like more nuanced, more "grey" drow and I wish Paizo would do something in that direction. I'd be highly interested to see drow to be a little more integrated into the actual going-ons of Golarion, but I suspect they won't do that. I think, after they did Second Darkness, they reserved themselves to the occasional crunch and generic Darklands-only material, because they think that drow should be just like that, which is a conceptual decision I could respect, even if I'd prefer otherwise. Or because they just want to leave drow-related stuff to WotC (as one of their biggest milking cows), out of professional courtesy and personal friendships, which I could understand too.
                  Totally! I think there's also a lot of been there, done that in play as well. I know from conversations on the Paizo boards that drow have their fans in the upper offices of Paizo, but since they have such a storied history in RPGs, all that Pathfinder really needs to do is show how their drow are similar, yet unique, then individual DMs to take it from there. They don't really need to rehash what makes drow awesome villains, because their fanbase knows that already. That allows them to spend time and money on exploring things that are more unique to Golarian like Runelords, the Starstone, and the Worldwould.


                  CofD booklists:
                  Beast I Changeling | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Second Chances View Post
                    Totally! I think there's also a lot of been there, done that in play as well. I know from conversations on the Paizo boards that drow have their fans in the upper offices of Paizo, but since they have such a storied history in RPGs, all that Pathfinder really needs to do is show how their drow are similar, yet unique, then individual DMs to take it from there. They don't really need to rehash what makes drow awesome villains, because their fanbase knows that already. That allows them to spend time and money on exploring things that are more unique to Golarian like Runelords, the Starstone, and the Worldwould.
                    Quite fair points, I think you're right.

                    Also, Ustalav... I feel it's a lot more the true spiritual successor of Ravenloft than CoS and I constantly have an itch to really tie-in the two and the varisians and Vistani...

                    Also Cheliax... Really, Golarion is just delightfully darker by quite a few degrees than FR. Also, I appreciate how it is a lot more renaissance, with firearms and all.
                    Last edited by PMárk; 11-23-2017, 03:21 AM.


                    If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                    • #55
                      Speaking of Drow, am I the only one who thinks it’s weird that they’re Chaotic? With their complex social hierarchies, they strike me as Lawful Evil, or at least Neutral Evil. Plus, being Lawful Evil would give them a better contrast against the traditional Chaotic Good elves. I may be playing with fire by asking about folks’ opinion of a race’s typical alignment, but I’m curious. Also I actually just really like alignment.


                      Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                      My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                      Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                      • #56
                        no i definitely agree, but i would go with neutral rather than lawful, sure they have strict hierarchies but they also navigate these hierarchies through assassination and scheming and backstabbing, I mean the alignment chart never made a great deal of sense and sometimes it just breaks

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                          Yeah, conceptually it was really great.



                          Heh, me too. Although, after maybe the thousan orcs arc, Drizzt himself became more like a plot device than a real character. I always liked Jarlaxle and Entreri, but after their own trilogy, I just wanted to read about them a lot more than Drizzt, because Drizzt became stale. Even in his own later books, the supporting cast was far more interesting. Nevertheless, I'll always have a special place in my heart for that drow and his kitty. I'm sad the series ended with Hero, because it was the best book in the series for a long time and it had the potential for a lot of interesting follow-ups. Also I became quite fond of Yvonnel at the end.



                          You know, I didn't have problems with that and agree, spellscars were great. Actually, I even like dragonborn, especially after reading Evans's Farideh series (which is quite good). My main problem was more with the 100 years jump and how profoundly they altered the setting as whole, the gods, the landscape, the plots going on, the cast of important characters, the politics, everything. It just felt like a totally different setting.
                          The Sellswords Trilogy with Artemis and Jarlaxle basically still being villains, but being villains we followed is honestly my favorite stuff Salvatore ever did.

                          Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                          Quite fair points, I think you're right.

                          Also, Ustalav... I feel it's a lot more the true spiritual successor of Ravenloft than CoS and I constantly have an itch to really tie-in the two and the varisians and Vistani...

                          Also Cheliax... Really, Golarion is just delightfully darker by quite a few degrees than FR. Also, I appreciate how it is a lot more renaissance, with firearms and all.
                          I would pay good money to have the Vistanni and the Varisians both retconned out of existence. Fuck thay raciat garbage and whoever has allowed it to stick around.


                          Call me Regina or Lex.

                          Female pronouns for me, please.

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                          • #58
                            Currently running the Zeitgeist campaign in 4e. I can heartily recommend it!

                            Having played every edition I never quite got the hate for 4th edition. Sure, it has it's issues, and it needed some extra books beyond the phb to make the classes less bland and samey, but after that it was just pure joy. It has spoiled me for all other editions, really.

                            The world-building was also top-notch imho. Nentir Vale and the Points of Light setting do not get nearly enough credit, and I loved 4e's take on Dark Sun and especially Eberron.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by ahather View Post
                              no i definitely agree, but i would go with neutral rather than lawful, sure they have strict hierarchies but they also navigate these hierarchies through assassination and scheming and backstabbing, I mean the alignment chart never made a great deal of sense and sometimes it just breaks
                              Very true. Honestly, 5th Edition would probably be better off just dropping alignment. I do think it can be a useful tool, but 5e doesn’t do anything with it, so it’s just this weird vestigial thing on the character sheet with little more meaning than hair and eye color.

                              Personally, how I run it is that the alignment you write on your sheet is your character’s ideals. If you believe in putting others before yourself, you’re Good. If you believe in the importance of social structure and rules, you’re Lawful. Your actions may or may not be in line with those ideals, but that doesn’t change your stated alignment. So, under that system I suppose Drow would be Lawful Evil, nominally believing in the importance of social hierarchy and in the self before others, even if in practice their employment of deception and assassination betrays those ideals.


                              Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                              My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                              • #60
                                I guess now its just a tool to solidify characterization

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