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  • Originally posted by Grimmi05 View Post
    I agree. Its all the dropped plot hooks that really ruined The Last Jedi for me. who are Rey's parents? drunken space bums despite everyone acting like her parents are Important in TFA. Who is Snoke and where did he come from? doesn't matter he dead. Why did Luke hide a map for people to find? Mistake he actully never wanted to come back in the first place. There is barely any plot cohesion at all between the two movies.
    Now this I can understand. I think whether or not most people liked TLJ has a lot to do with how they felt about TFA. If you thought Snoke was an interesting villain and wanted to know more about him, his death might have been pretty disappointing. If you thought he was a cheap Palpatine clone who unnecessarily cluttered an already busy plot, his death would have been a relief. If you were invested in the mystery of Rey’s parents, them being no one might have been a let-down. If you were invested in the story of Rey forming her own independent identity, her parents being no one was probably what you were hoping for.


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    • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
      If Johnson didn't want to make a movie building on what Abrams had written then he shouldn't have agreed to film a sequel to Abram's movie. I mean, it was the first movie in a trilogy - of course Abrams was going to drop plot hooks and interesting things that would get explored in the later movies. That's the kind of thing you're supposed to do in a trilogy is set up plot threads that will be woven through the three movies.
      You mean like all the mysteries and plot hooks New Hope left?

      Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
      Basically if Johnson didn't want to make a sequel then he should have let another director who was interested in making a sequel make the movie.
      He did make a sequel to TFA. Just a sequel that wasn’t interested in stringing the audience along until it runs out of time to explain what the deal is with the smoke monster.

      Given Abrams track record, I think Johnson made the best possible decisions for the overall story as he possibly could have at every turn - putting the kabash on Abrams cockteasing bullshit and forcing him to proceed with a single cohesive story that actually has closure.
      Last edited by Charlaquin; 07-17-2018, 04:59 PM.


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      • I can attest to just being annoyed by the Rey parentage question and also not giving a shit about Snoke.


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        • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
          You mean like all the mysteries and plot hooks New Hope left?
          New Hope did leave quite a few mysteries, plot hooks and had a number of threads that wove into subsequent movies, this despite the fact that A New Hope was originally made to be a single, one-off movie because Lucas and the rest weren't sure about the financial success of the movie and whether or not they'd be able to make the rest of the movies in the story. I'm sure when Disney planned out Episode 7, they were also planning to make an Episode 8 and 9 as well.

          Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
          Given Abrams track record, I think Johnson made the best possible decisions for the overall story as he possibly could have at every turn - putting the kabash on Abrams cockteasing bullshit and forcing him to proceed with a single cohesive story that actually has closure.
          I think what happened was, TLJ squandered everything that TFA set up for it and you ended up with two movies that don't fit very well together. Like what Abrams had introduced or not (and I generally didn't) it was already there. Johnson's decision to simply toss it all in the trash and make it all meaningless just made things even worse.

          *EDIT* Sorry for the edit, I think my earlier response was maybe a little too short or insulting so I didn't want you to take it the wrong way.
          Last edited by AnubisXy; 07-17-2018, 05:21 PM.

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          • Originally posted by Grimmi05 View Post
            Ok. I am the hero of the universe. I am going to leave for a planet to live a hermit life and I don't want anyone to find me. to prepare I A) I disappear leaving no trace about where I could be or if I am even alive or B) give half of a map to a loyal retainer that my sister knows and put the other half with my R2 unit that only activates when in he other half is brought in contact with it?

            Also the every time Rey's parents are mentioned everyone in the movie acts like its a big secret about who they are. Prime example when Rey is talking to Han about how she was left on Jakku he gets this look on his face like he knows who they are and doesn't want to tell Rey about it.
            I mean that was Johnson's goal - to overturn audience expectations. "You think all of that stuff in the last movie was important? That it matters? It's not and it doesn't. Surprise!"

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            • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
              New Hope did leave quite a few mysteries, plot hooks and had a number of threads that wove into subsequent movies, this despite the fact that A New Hope was originally made to be a single, one-off movie because Lucas and the rest weren't sure about the financial success of the movie and whether or not they'd be able to make the rest of the movies in the story. I'm sure when Disney planned out Episode 7, they were also planning to make an Episode 8 and 9 as well.
              Could you give an example?

              Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
              Honestly it sounds like you would have been happier if Star Wars movies were each a self-contained movie that didn't involve having the story or plot points or character reveals occur over multiple movies if you believe that doing so is, "stringing the audience along."
              I would absolutely be happier if each movie was a satisfying viewing experience on its own. I’m absolutely fine with plot points and character reveals over multiple movies, provided each movie is still a complete story. Vader’s identity was revealed over the course of two, or arguably three movies. But New Hope didn’t leave you wondering who Vader was, let alone constantly shoving down your throat how important Vader’s identity is, and you’d better come back for the sequel if you want to find out. That bullshit is what I consider stringing the audience along. It’s the difference between Spider-Man Homecoming and Batman v Superman. The former is a complete story that you can enjoy on its own, but still impacts and is impacted by the larger ongoing story of which it is a part. The latter is hacky crap that doesn’t make sense if you haven’t seen the preceeding movie and spends an absurd amount of its runtime advertising its own sequels to you.


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              • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                Could you give an example?
                Sure, like Han Solo having a bounty put out for him by Jabba. Towards the end of A New Hope the Alliance gives him the money to repay his debt, but instead he turns around and joins the Alliance. At the end of the movie we're left wondering how that is going to play out, and this becomes an important plot point in Episode 5 and then especially in Episode 6.
                Last edited by AnubisXy; 07-17-2018, 05:24 PM.

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                • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                  Sure, like Han Solo having a bounty put out him by a crime lord. In A New Hope the Alliance gives him the money to repay the bounty, but instead he turns around and joins the Alliance. At the end of the movie we're left wondering how that is going to play out, and this becomes an important plot point in Episode 5 and then especially in Episode 6.
                  That wasn’t a mystery though. If there had never been another Star Wars movie, no one would have been left wondering if Han ever settled his bounty. He got the money to do so, and there was no obstacle to him doing so set up, so it was assumed that he did until a sequel told them otherwise. Han’s debt also wasn’t a major B-plot in New Hope. It was a background element, serving only to inform Han’s motivations, not to entice the audience to come back and see the next one and find out how that story ends.


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                  • Han's bounty and desire to repay it was pretty much the central conceit of his character - he only took the job because he needed the money. It's also related to the most important part of his character arc where, at the end, he decides to come back and help the Alliance out in their suicide run against the Dearth Star rather than take the money. And, while I wasn't alive at the time the movie came out, I imagine, "Is Han going to repay his debt?" something that fans of the series would have discussed.

                    To be honest though I don't really have an issue with a mystery or story plot occurring over multiple movies, especially when you know ahead of time that those movies are going to get made (like we knew with Episodes 7, 8 and 9). I watch a lot of other media where they unveil the plot or mysteries over the course of a season, or over multiple games or books or what have you that I don't have a problem with it and, in fact, think that's a fairly nice way to set things up for future movies.
                    Last edited by AnubisXy; 07-17-2018, 05:37 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                      Han's bounty and desire to repay it was pretty much the central conceit of his character - he only took the job because he needed the money. It's also related to the most important part of his character arc where, at the end, he decides to come back and help the Alliance out in their suicide run against the Dearth Star rather than take the money.
                      Right, like I said, a background element that informs Han’s motivations, as opposed to a B-plot.

                      Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                      To be honest though I don't really have an issue with a mystery or story plot occurring over multiple movies, especially when you know ahead of time that those movies are going to get made (like we knew with Episodes 7, 8 and 9). I watch a lot of other media where they unveil the plot or mysteries over the course of a season, or over multiple games or books or what have you that I don't have a problem with it and, in fact, think that's a fairly nice way to set things up for future movies.
                      That’s fine, you’re welcome to your opinion. I prefer my movies and books to be complete stories on their own that may connect to a broader overarching narrative, but that you don’t need to be following the overarching narrative to enjoy. TV is a different platform, with different needs and different expectations. You don’t watch one episode of a TV show without expecting to see any others. At least not any more. When that did used to be more common practice, more shows were episodic.
                      Last edited by Charlaquin; 07-17-2018, 05:52 PM.


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                      • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                        That’s fine, you’re welcome to your opinion. I prefer my movies and books to be complete stories on their own that may connect to a broader overarching narrative, but that you don’t need to be following the overarching narrative to enjoy. TV is a different platform, with different needs and different expectations. You don’t watch one episode of a TV show without expecting to see any others. At least not any more. When that did used to be more common practice, more shows were episodic.
                        Many of my favorite series, whether science fiction of fantasy (like Lord of the Rings), or comic book storylines, were created to tell a story over multiple volumes, so yeah. Regardless I think, going to into the Star Wars movies after having seen the 6 earlier movies, it would be a bit strange to expect that Episode 7 would stand entirely on its own, when arguably only one of the Star Wars movies was ever intended to do so.

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                        • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                          Many of my favorite series, whether science fiction of fantasy (like Lord of the Rings), or comic book storylines, were created to tell a story over multiple volumes, so yeah.
                          You can tell a story over multiple volumes, while also telling a story within each volume. Although Lord of the Rings is probably not the best example, as it wasn’t created to be told over multiple volumes, Tolkien wanted it to be one book, his editor just wouldn’t let him.

                          Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                          Regardless I think, going to into the Star Wars movies after having seen the 6 earlier movies, it would be a bit strange to expect that Episode 7 would stand entirely on its own, when arguably only one of the Star Wars movies was ever intended to do so.
                          I disagree, considering 7 was the first Star Wars movie not to tell a complete story. The others are part of a larger meta-narrative, yes, but each is also its own story with a beginning, middle, and end that you don’t need to watch the others to appreciate.


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                          • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                            Ok first of all, that’s not the canon reason for the rule of 2, that’s a fan theory. Second of all, which is it? Does force power come from genetics, or from how many other people are using your side of the force? Cause if it’s the latter, guess how many Jedi the light side is distributed between?



                            She didn’t convince her men she was leading them into a death trap. Poe did. Further proving why he was not someone who could be trusted. If anyone were to receive a court Marshall and dishonorable discharge, it would be Poe.


                            1 - Yes, and guess how many times throughout the franchise the entire friggin order of Jedi have been depicted on the verge of extinction because of the actions of a single Sith Lord? You said yourself that the force is conscious and wants to remain in balance. So it's only right to assume that if there are vastly more Jedi than there are Sith, the Force will compensate for that by making extremely powerful Sith to combat the over populated Jedi.


                            2 - She still REFUSED to clarify the situation and allowed Poe and the others to continue thinking she had lost her mind. That's the point! If Poe was disrupting her plan and putting everybody in jeopardy when she had a plan to save them all, she should have come out and told them the damn truth. It doesn't matter if the plan gets accidentally leaked to the enemy at the last second, because at that point, the plan was never going to be put into action anyways!
                            Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-17-2018, 06:50 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                              1 - Yes, and guess how many times throughout the franchise the entire friggin order of Jedi have been depicted on the verge of extinction because of the actions of a single Sith Lord? You said yourself that the force is conscious and wants to remain in balance. So it's only right to assume that if there are vastly more Jedi than there are Sith, the Force will compensate for that by making extremely powerful Sith to combat the over populated Jedi.
                              Mhmm. Now follow that train of thought to its last stop. How many people are tapping into the light side of the force in the beginning of TFA?

                              Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                              2 - She still REFUSED to clarify the situation and allowed Poe and the others to continue thinking she had lost her mind. That's the point! If Poe was disrupting her plan and putting everybody in jeopardy when she had a plan to save them all, she should have come out and told them the damn truth. It doesn't matter of the plan gets accidentally leaked to the enemy, because at that point, the plan was never going to be put into action anyways!
                              Yeah, it’s very clear you haven’t seen the movie, because what you’re describing just keeps getting further from what actually happened.


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                              • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                                Mhmm. Now follow that train of thought to its last stop. How many people are tapping into the light side of the force in the beginning of TFA?

                                So let me get this straight, you rejected the reasons behind the Rule of 2 being implemented as being a "fan theory" when I initially pointed it out, but now that it can be used against me, you decide to support the idea?

                                As for the origin of the force, why does it have to be either or?

                                Yes, random people are perfectly capable of manifesting force sensitivity. That's never been questioned in the series.

                                But it is a confirmed fact that one's connection to the force can and has been strengthened through selective breeding programs, as is the case with many spiritual communities who don't adhere to vows of celibacy throughout the galaxy. One such society being the Witches of Dathomir, who use the dark side of the force to tame and ride Rancors into battle.
                                Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-17-2018, 07:03 PM.

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