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  • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    I think it would work without having those expectations, but it would take appreciating a different view of the film.

    Basically, TLJ is about a bunch of idealists (even Kylo and Poe would should know better by now) coming to grips with their idealism (or even naivety) and reality not lining up. These are characters that, in universe, largely grew up with some sanitized and romanticized version of the original trilogy fed to them. So all that stuff you see as, 'duh this would never work,' is supposed to be that way, but the characters don't know that yet. They're in the process of learning what you already know. The world isn't black and white, people don't change easily, tales of heroism skip all the stupidity and luck that makes the heroes look less good, etc.

    So yeah, if you saw all that coming? That's good, the point is the characters are evolving to understand things like you do. The movies are affirming your position by forcing the characters towards it so they can mature for the next one.

    I suppose I can understand how that can be enjoyable to watch, but I just found it tiresome being told things I already know. I guess I just would have perferred that the characters learned new things that I could learn with them instead of going over territory that's already been explored. But I don't think I should have expected that give that entire trilogy seems obsessed with the OT and literally took two films to finally break away from it.

    I do have to argue the point that morality isn't black-and-white in this film. While our heroes are shown to fail and make bad choices, ultimately were still supposed to see them as the protagonists and not question their goals. The Resistance is good and the First Order is bad and even the the Rebels 2.0 buying weapons from slavers is completely forgotten by the end of the film and Kylo Ren is still a Space Nazi leading an army of Space Nazis whose motivations are one-dimensional. Not that I want the Space Nazis "to have a good point" or anything, but if were really going to complicate the good vs evil paradigm than maybe our antagonists should be different.

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    • By the "world isn't black and white," I wasn't speaking strictly about the morality of the primary factions. There's a world beyond this conflict that isn't so simple, and narrative roles you were raised to believe in aren't that simple in reality.

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      • I don’t know, I wasn’t surprised by the tropes being subverted either, I thought they were all sufficiently telegraphed. I was just pleasently surprised to see Star Wars under Disney subverting them, especially when the last one had been played so safe. My point wasn’t that they were genuinely unexpected twists; quite the contrary, I was specifically responding with surprise to the people who missed the telegraphing and thought the movie had been trying to play those tropes straight, and musing that I imagine the movie would likely be a very different experience for them the second time around.
        Last edited by Charlaquin; 09-22-2018, 02:15 AM.


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        • That's something I can confirm. I know of at least five people, myself included, who found the movie much better on the second watch.. In some cases they started out liking it and grew to think it was great. In some cases they started out really disliking it and grew to think it was good. In my case I enjoyed it a lot but thought it had serious flaws. Most of those flaws didn't seem like flaws on the second watch. Most.


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          • It's funny; the twist on the usual formula that I was so strongly expecting by about two-thirds into the film was that Rey actually would more wholly side with Kylo, and I was so on board with that and where it might go from there.

            I ultimately see that it's not really in her character, so I have no issue with it not going there, but I think it puts me on a slightly different wavelength than other people seeing telegraphed subversions.


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            • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
              It's funny; the twist on the usual formula that I was so strongly expecting by about two-thirds into the film was that Rey actually would more wholly side with Kylo, and I was so on board with that and where it might go from there.
              Kylo Ren doesn't really seem to have a side, though, does he? He clearly wanted to kill Luke and others who stand against him, but he hasn't really demonstrated any goals or opinions about how the universe should work, has he?

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              • I mean, he has a side (his own), but you're right that as of the end of TLJ he doesn't really have grander plans or goals. But a big point of how things stand after Rey refuses to join him, and his final battle with Luke, is that he has to face that reality. He's fought very hard... and basically has gotten what he wanted (even if not how he wanted it) and now has no idea what to do with it since it didn't turn out like he thought it would. He's a dog that caught the car.

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                • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  I mean, he has a side (his own), but you're right that as of the end of TLJ he doesn't really have grander plans or goals. But a big point of how things stand after Rey refuses to join him, and his final battle with Luke, is that he has to face that reality. He's fought very hard... and basically has gotten what he wanted (even if not how he wanted it) and now has no idea what to do with it since it didn't turn out like he thought it would. He's a dog that caught the car.

                  Similarly, one of my favorite character moments in the movie is Hux's 'Oh shit' face as he sees Kylo raging at the end. That moment is such a breaking point for his character as he realizes there's no one else in charge anymore. No one to lead them. No one to give him the external validation he craves. No one to curry favor with. No one to control Kylo. Hux is the most capable person in the room now and it terrifies him.


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                  • Originally posted by nofather View Post
                    Kylo Ren doesn't really seem to have a side, though, does he?
                    That's... not really necessary to apply the phrase "side with".

                    Like, to side with his argument. Side with his personality. "Hey, we're the only ones who can understand each other, let's stick together and figure out this crazy universe as we go". Not necessarily that he's got an organisation or fully developed ideology.


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                    • In other news, Kathleen Kennedy's contract as head of Lucasfilm has been renewed for another 3 years.

                      Well, so much for "fans" being so self-assured that Kennedy was going to get fired...

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                      • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                        In other news, Kathleen Kennedy's contract as head of Lucasfilm has been renewed for another 3 years.

                        Well, so much for "fans" being so self-assured that Kennedy was going to get fired...

                        Why the hell would she? Because people didn't like the films she's produced and a cotton industry on YouTube complaining about her? So what? Pretty much all them with the exception of Solo made a shit ton of money. So as long as that continues her job is safe because that's just how capitalism works.

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                        • Originally posted by Weirdboyz View Post


                          Why the hell would she? Because people didn't like the films she's produced and a cotton industry on YouTube complaining about her? So what? Pretty much all them with the exception of Solo made a shit ton of money. So as long as that continues her job is safe because that's just how capitalism works.
                          I guess we will see with how well Episode IX does. that contract might not mean much if it does poorly at the box office.

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                          • Originally posted by Weirdboyz View Post
                            Why the hell would she? Because people didn't like the films she's produced and a cotton industry on YouTube complaining about her? So what? Pretty much all them with the exception of Solo made a shit ton of money. So as long as that continues her job is safe because that's just how capitalism works.
                            I bring it up because, in the fever pitch of TLJ hatedom, there were rumors going around about how Disney execs weren't happy with Kennedy because of the divisive reception of TLJ and the poor box office of Solo. And among these rumors was that they were considering firing her from the position.

                            Some of the hatedom YTers were running with this as absolute fact, and smugly declaring that they'll hear about Kennedy's resignation any day now, that it was victory for the "true fans".
                            Last edited by tasti man LH; 09-29-2018, 06:49 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                              I bring it up because, in the fever pitch of TLJ hatedom, there were rumors going around about how Disney execs weren't happy with Kennedy because of the divisive reception of TLJ and the poor box office of Solo. And among these rumors was that they were considering firing her from the position.

                              Some of the hatedom YTers were running with this as absolute fact, and smugly declaring that they'll hear about Kennedy's resignation any day now, that it was victory for the "true fans".
                              I'm always amused by the YouTube Star Wars haters. They act like they're the end all be all of Star Wars fans and what they say will have any sway over the execs at Disney. lol.



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                              • This seems relevant.

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