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  • #31
    Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
    I think it’s funny for how much crap Rey got about being a Marry Sue that so many folks are so upset about Luke having flaws. (Does that need a spoiler tag?)
    I think people are just upset at how Luke ended up failing so hard at being a Jedi.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

      I think people are just upset at how Luke ended up failing so hard at being a Jedi.
      No harder than Obi Wan did. And failing (and learning from failure) was kind of the theme of the film.


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      • #33
        Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
        No harder than Obi Wan did. And failing (and learning from failure) was kind of the theme of the film.
        To be fair,
        Obi-wan wasn't going to destroy 10,000 years of collective Jedi knowledge when his apprentice fell to the Dark Side and wiped out all of the Jedi. Luke would have if Yoda hadn't intervened and placed it all on board the Falcon.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
          I think it’s funny for how much crap Rey got about being a Marry Sue that so many folks are so upset about Luke having flaws. (Does that need a spoiler tag?)

          Meh.

          I'm fine with Luke having flaws, I just didn't like his character in this film. Hammill stated during production he wasn't happy with how his character was presented, and it shows.

          Rey is a Mary Sue...and that sucks, too.


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          • #35
            Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
            To be fair,
            Obi-wan wasn't going to destroy 10,000 years of collective Jedi knowledge when his apprentice fell to the Dark Side and wiped out all of the Jedi. Luke would have if Yoda hadn't intervened and placed it all on board the Falcon.
            I don’t remember Yoda putting the books on the Falcon? In fact, I was pretty sure Yoda prevented Luke from saving them when he suddenly changed his mind...

            And, like, frankly he wasn’t wrong about the Jedi. Everything the Jedi have done in the films has pretty much resulted in making things worse. The brief period of peace that Luke did achieve was due entirely to him ignoring the advice of Yoda and Obi-Wan, and was subsequently broken again by his own attempt to restore the Jedi order.


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            • #36
              Originally posted by Fat Larry View Post
              Meh.

              I'm fine with Luke having flaws, I just didn't like his character in this film. Hammill stated during production he wasn't happy with how his character was presented, and it shows.
              That’s perfectly reasonable. I didn’t care for all of the choices Rian Johnson made for Luke either, though I think Hammill did an excellent job selling it, especially considering the knowledge that he was so unhappy with the direction.

              Originally posted by Fat Larry View Post
              Rey is a Mary Sue...and that sucks, too.
              I don’t agree, but I don’t really want to get into this argument again. I will agree that she is a highly capable protagonist, and if folks don’t like the extent of her capabilities, that’s perfectly fine.


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              • #37
                I wonder what people in Asia think of the whole Mary Sue thing. I have been getting back into reading Asian comics lately, and a genre I rarely enjoy but is super popular in Korean manhua, is variations of reincarnation stories in which the protagonist starts the story as a hugely skilled and powerful character that dies and is reborn into another world (and at least in one case, goes back in time "inhabiting" his own younger body), but retains the memories and skills of their former life.

                In these stories, the protagonist is usually ridiculously skilled, has knowledge no one else has, grows in power at astounding rates, is often part of some special group or bloodline in his new life, has extreme luck in finding rare magical artifacts, easily attracts a bunch of super loyal and powerful allies and love interests, just about always has an ace up their sleeve for when it would appear they are outmatched, their enemies are almost always extremely despicable people and so on. Nobody in SW, not even Starkiller from the Force Unleashed games, should make a single blip in the Sue-o-meter of this genre's fans.


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                • #38
                  Originally posted by danelsan View Post
                  I wonder what people in Asia think of the whole Mary Sue thing. I have been getting back into reading Asian comics lately, and a genre I rarely enjoy but is super popular in Korean manhua, is variations of reincarnation stories in which the protagonist starts the story as a hugely skilled and powerful character that dies and is reborn into another world (and at least in one case, goes back in time "inhabiting" his own younger body), but retains the memories and skills of their former life.

                  In these stories, the protagonist is usually ridiculously skilled, has knowledge no one else has, grows in power at astounding rates, is often part of some special group or bloodline in his new life, has extreme luck in finding rare magical artifacts, easily attracts a bunch of super loyal and powerful allies and love interests, just about always has an ace up their sleeve for when it would appear they are outmatched, their enemies are almost always extremely despicable people and so on. Nobody in SW, not even Starkiller from the Force Unleashed games, should make a single blip in the Sue-o-meter of this genre's fans.
                  Well the thing is, the term Mary Sue really isn’t meant to refer to a character’s capabilities. It’s about a lack of character flaws.


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                    And, like, frankly he wasn’t wrong about the Jedi. Everything the Jedi have done in the films has pretty much resulted in making things worse. The brief period of peace that Luke did achieve was due entirely to him ignoring the advice of Yoda and Obi-Wan, and was subsequently broken again by his own attempt to restore the Jedi order.
                    I disagree. The Jedi served a very important purpose. People will be born with Force Sensitivity. Without training, people can use the Force in bad ways and accidentally hurt themselves or their loved ones. They might accidentally destroy the mind of someone they care about, or accidentally use the Force to drop something on someone, not to mention falling to the Dark Side. The Jedi Order serves as a place to train these people so they don't end up hurting themselves. The Jedi Order also offers an ethical framework, to help teach people when to use their powers and when not to use their powers - they can read minds and control other people. Poorly used that will cause no end of harm.

                    The problems that occurred with the Jedi was whenever the Order would start moving into the political sphere, becoming agents of the Republic (like they did in the Clone Wars) something that they weren't supposed to do. The Jedi Order wasn't an official part of the Republic, but rather was its own organization. They'd train people or go after evil Force users or other people who abused the Force. This seemed to work pretty well for thousands of years. The problem is, without an Order, many people aren't going to have the chance to learn how to use their Force powers and would end up hurting themselves. But they were never supposed to be the arm of the government - for the thousands of years they remained separate, there wasn't an issue.

                    I think you need to have a Jedi Order, or at least some kind of formally acknowledged group that trains and takes care of Force Sensitive people, provides them an ethical foundation and ideally is separate from the government to avoid the risk of Jedi being trained as, and used as, governmental soldiers. Honestly you probably aren't going to find a system that's much better than the Jedi, especially in a universe where the Jedi have thousands of years worth of history to knowledge to build off of.

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                    • #40
                      A social safety net to train Force-sensitives is a good thing. That social safety net being a religious order who preaches that feeling emotions is going to be your downfall is not.

                      The whole point of the Prequels is that Anakin’s downfall is just as much the fault of an oppressive Jedi dogma as anything else, and the whole point of Luke’s story in the OT is that unlike a classic Jedi, he’s very in tune with his emotions and essentially redeems Vader through the kind of love that the Jedi would’ve dismissed as attachments.


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                      • #41
                        To be fair the Jedi don't teach about the danger of personal relationships just because they're a bunch of jerks who hate seeing people in love. Rather, over the millennium they've seen time and time again how close personal relationships can lead people to fall to the Dark Side. Life is fragile, people get hurt, injured and die, and often times when that happens to someone a Force user is particularly close to, the Force user feels anger, hatred, rage and a desire for revenge, all of which can lead to that person's corruption by the Dark Side.

                        Being corrupted by feeling those kind of emotions is not something that normal people have to deal with. That's why Jedi are encouraged to avoid those kind of emotions because when regular people get angry and filled with hate, that's it. When Force users do it, they fall to the Dark Side, and when that happens they can do some pretty horrible stuff. If anything, Anakin's story can be viewed as a case-in-point for why the Jedi teachings were correct.

                        Of course it's not fair that someone should be expected to avoid falling in love or experiencing romantic entanglements just because they were born sensitive to the Force, but then nothing about the Force is fair to begin with - people who deserve to be able to manipulate it can't, and people who should never have that kind of power have it in spades. Rather in the end, dealing with the Force is a duty and responsibility, something that the people who are sensitive to it are burdened (or even cursed with), and the Jedi Order managed to find a way to help people deal with the Force in such a way that they wouldn't pose a threat to the rest of the galaxy with at least some success, for thousands and thousands of years.

                        To say that the Jedi Order was a failure ignores the fact that they succeeded for many, many years and in the end they were destroyed because a Jedi did the very thing the Order had always said was really dangerous and Jedi shouldn't do, because if they did, they'd fall to the Dark Side. Which is exactly what ended up happening.




                        Or to put it another way the Jedi Order said, "Anakin. See that bus? Don't walk out in front of it. People who walk out in front of buses get hurt really badly. We've seen it happen a lot, so we have a rule about not walking in front of buses."

                        And then Anakin said, "Stop oppressing me with your religious beliefs and trying to tell me what to do! I'm special and that bus won't hurt me!" and then walked out in front of a bus and got hurt really badly, just like the Jedi Masters had been telling him all along. It's not, however, the flaw in the Jedi's teachings that Anakin was splattered when he decided to ignore everything they warned him about and walk out in front of that bus.
                        Last edited by AnubisXy; 12-26-2017, 12:05 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                          I don’t remember Yoda putting the books on the Falcon? In fact, I was pretty sure Yoda prevented Luke from saving them when he suddenly changed his mind...
                          So near the end of the movie, Finn opens a drawer on the Falcon to grab a blanket to put on Rose, and the Jedi text books are inside the drawer. He doesn't notice because he's never seen them and shuts the drawer. So when Luke went to destroy the tree, the books were already gone. Presumably Yoda was entirely aware of this when he blew up the tree with lightning. I'm leaning more towards the idea that Yoda had put them on the Falcon, though it's also possible that Rey got grumpy about Luke not teaching her and decided to steal the books when she left.
                          Last edited by AnubisXy; 12-26-2017, 01:38 AM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

                            So near the end of the movie, Finn opens a drawer on the Falcon to grab a blanket to put on Rose, and the Jedi text books are inside the drawer. He doesn't notice because he's never seen them and shuts the drawer. So when Luke went to destroy the tree, the books were already gone. Presumably Yoda was entirely aware of this when he blew up the tree with lightning. I'm leaning more towards the idea that Yoda had put them on the Falcon, though it's also possible that Rey got grumpy about Luke not teaching her and decided to steal the books when she left.
                            Oh wow, I totally missed that. Thanks for clarifying!


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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                              So near the end of the movie, Finn opens a drawer on the Falcon to grab a blanket to put on Rose, and the Jedi text books are inside the drawer. He doesn't notice because he's never seen them and shuts the drawer. So when Luke went to destroy the tree, the books were already gone. Presumably Yoda was entirely aware of this when he blew up the tree with lightning. I'm leaning more towards the idea that Yoda had put them on the Falcon, though it's also possible that Rey got grumpy about Luke not teaching her and decided to steal the books when she left.

                              My takeaway is that Rey stole the books. When she gets ready to leave the island, there is a very quick shot of her on the Falcon closing that drawer.


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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Mr Gone View Post

                                My takeaway is that Rey stole the books. When she gets ready to leave the island, there is a very quick shot of her on the Falcon closing that drawer.
                                I admit I'm torn on whether I like the idea of Rey stealing the books, or if I don't care for what that says for her character. That's why I prefer leaning towards the idea that Yoda put them on there and she'd be shocked if she saw them. But yeah, you're probably right that she swiped the books and then quickly absconded on the Falcon. Maybe I can try to look at things more charitably and say hat she was hoping it would mean Luke would chase after her to get the books back, so she wasn't simply stealing the books for herself, but rather was stealing them as a way to try and draw Luke back out into the galaxy. At the very least it will be interesting to see how that plays out in the next movie.

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