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  • #46
    So I did have one question for people more familiar with the new Star Wars universe, this is (presumably) something that was answered in the expanded material.

    What's the Republic's fleet doing during Episode 8? One of the major plot points in 7 was that the Republic's military was staying out of the conflict with the First Order and instead, the Republic was quietly funding the Resistance to engage in a proxy-war with the First Order. After the First Order blew up the capital of the Republic however, I assumed that the Republic would have no choice but to go "all in" and get involved in the fight with the First Order. I mean, I wouldn't think the Republic would take the destruction of such an important planet lying down and then not respond. But it seems that didn't happen and the Republic is just sitting out of the fight?

    I mean, even if the Republic lost its capital world, presumably they still have fleets of ships and facilities for producing new ships, and hundreds of worlds to draw resources from and would feel compelled to take some kind of military response. To make a comparison, it would be like if someone dropped a nuke on Washington DC - the US has a chain of command, and it might take a few days to figure out who was in charge, but after that the US would probably respond to whomever attacked them.

    Is this just bad writing or something that was explained in the novels or somewhere else?

    Also, what about all of the non-human worlds? One of the major points was that the Empire was an oppressive, racist, human-supremacist organization and non-humans were treated very badly. The New Order seems to be trying to bring that back, so you'd think many of the non-human worlds and races would be joining in to fight against them, but that's apparently not what's happening. Instead it seems like they simply don't care whether they're ruled by the Republic or the First Order, which strikes me as pretty odd. Is the New Republic as racist and oppressive as the old Empire, such that the member races don't see any real difference between the Empire, the Republic and the First Order and couldn't care less whether the First Order wins or not?
    Last edited by AnubisXy; 12-26-2017, 03:41 PM.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
      I admit I'm torn on whether I like the idea of Rey stealing the books, or if I don't care for what that says for her character. That's why I prefer leaning towards the idea that Yoda put them on there and she'd be shocked if she saw them. But yeah, you're probably right that she swiped the books and then quickly absconded on the Falcon. Maybe I can try to look at things more charitably and say hat she was hoping it would mean Luke would chase after her to get the books back, so she wasn't simply stealing the books for herself, but rather was stealing them as a way to try and draw Luke back out into the galaxy. At the very least it will be interesting to see how that plays out in the next movie.

      I'm ok with Rey taking them. I just assumed that him telling her to leave, and her being frustrated with his attitude(which did change after she left, luckily) that she just decided she'd have to teach herself, and so spirited away the books. Guess we'll see how that plays in the next movie. But, if Yoda did it, I'd be fine with that too.




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      • #48
        Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
        So I did have one question for people more familiar with the new Star Wars universe, this is (presumably) something that was answered in the expanded material.

        What's the Republic's fleet doing during Episode 8? One of the major plot points in 7 was that the Republic's military was staying out of the conflict with the First Order and instead, the Republic was quietly funding the Resistance to engage in a proxy-war with the First Order. After the First Order blew up the capital of the Republic however, I assumed that the Republic would have no choice but to go "all in" and get involved in the fight with the First Order. I mean, I wouldn't think the Republic would take the destruction of such an important planet lying down and then not respond. But it seems that didn't happen and the Republic is just sitting out of the fight?

        I mean, even if the Republic lost its capital world, presumably they still have fleets of ships and facilities for producing new ships, and hundreds of worlds to draw resources from and would feel compelled to take some kind of military response. To make a comparison, it would be like if someone dropped a nuke on Washington DC - the US has a chain of command, and it might take a few days to figure out who was in charge, but after that the US would probably respond to whomever attacked them.

        Is this just bad writing or something that was explained in the novels or somewhere else?

        Also, what about all of the non-human worlds? One of the major points was that the Empire was an oppressive, racist, human-supremacist organization and non-humans were treated very badly. The New Order seems to be trying to bring that back, so you'd think many of the non-human worlds and races would be joining in to fight against them, but that's apparently not what's happening. Instead it seems like they simply don't care whether they're ruled by the Republic or the First Order, which strikes me as pretty odd. Is the New Republic as racist and oppressive as the old Empire, such that the member races don't see any real difference between the Empire, the Republic and the First Order and couldn't care less whether the First Order wins or not?
        I don't know if this has ever been explicitly spelled out anywhere (I've only ever been knee deep in the EU, new or old) but the overall sense that I've gotten is that the New Republic only halfway has its shit together. Its established that it moves its capitol around all the time, which while certainly a gesture towards greater inclusion than either the Empire or the Old Republic also says to me that their constituent worlds require a lot of placating and that the movement of said capital probably generates a lot of unwanted competition between them. By a similar token there isn't a huge amount of reason to believe that the New Republic has ever had a big military. The Rebel fleet was always kind of a hodge podge, and even during the waning days of the Old Republic the idea of a Grand Army is presented as this new and radical thing. Considering that the last time such a thing was attempted it got used to create the very Empire they just got done overthrowing I imagine there would probably be some reticence about building another one. Their response to the threat of the First Order is pretty lukewarm. The portrayal of the conflict between the FO and the Resistance as a proxy war would seem to indicate that the FO is mostly expanding in areas not directly a part of the New Republic, which would also seem to indicate that the scope and membership of the New Republic isn't nearly as expansive as the Old Republic was. It is pretty likely in this context that many in the NR have to this point seen the FO as not their problem.

        Now, obviously blowing up one's capitol planet is a pretty big declaration of war, but if the NR is as fragile and vacillating as I think is implied then suddenly removing most of its leadership probably also removed one of the few things coordinating them and holding them together. Given that Last Jedi is taking place almost immediately after the end of Force Awakens there's a strong chance that whatever fleet the NR actually possesses, which I don't think is a lot, is probably still figuring out what the hell to do.
        Last edited by Caitiff Primogen; 12-28-2017, 04:13 PM.

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        • #49
          It was my understanding in The Force Awakens that the Republic "Fleet" was docked around the Capital, and when the First Order destroyed the capital, the fleet was destroyed as well. I think you can briefly see it when the beam splits into 5(yea...I know, it doesn't make much sense) and destroys several objects.

          So, I believe it's implied that with the New Republic leadership and fleet all destroyed all that's left is the Resistance forces, which were pretty small to begin with.


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          • #50
            Also, I had someone who is supposed to be my friend tell me today that my liking The Last Jedi makes me exactly like a holocaust denying nazi. What the fuck? I'm sure he thought he was being cute, but that's fucked up.

            He's done nothing but gripe to me how much he hates the movie and thinks that since he hates it, I should hate it too. Grrr.... Maybe that needs to go in the 'You Know What I Hate' Thread...


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            • #51
              Wow...I really killed this thread. Sorry about that...


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              • #52
                Originally posted by Mr Gone View Post
                Wow...I really killed this thread. Sorry about that...
                I don't think it was you. Personally, I've just kind of said everything I have to say about the movie at this point.


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                • #53
                  I haven't seen The Last Jedi, but based on what I'm hearing, this "New" Trilogy is a shinier version of the original trilogy?

                  They do know that Lucus remade the original trilogy more times than anybody can keep track of, right?


                  Originally posted by Mr Gone View Post
                  Also, I had someone who is supposed to be my friend tell me today that my liking The Last Jedi makes me exactly like a holocaust denying nazi. What the fuck? I'm sure he thought he was being cute, but that's fucked up.

                  He's done nothing but gripe to me how much he hates the movie and thinks that since he hates it, I should hate it too. Grrr.... Maybe that needs to go in the 'You Know What I Hate' Thread...

                  It's called "a fandom" and they can be extremely passionate about whatever it is they're into, to the point of hivemind mentality.






                  Last edited by Nyrufa; 01-07-2018, 01:13 AM.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                    I haven't seen The Last Jedi, but based on what I'm hearing, this "New" Trilogy is a shinier version of the original trilogy?
                    No, sir. The Force Awakens is a newer, shinier version of A New Hope, featuring a typical J.J. Abrams Mystery Box. The Last Jedi is about as far from that as you can get. It’s so controversial because it went so far afield of what fans expect from the series, particularly regarding the classic characters, who some fans argue act out of character based on what is already established about them in canon. After the film’s handling of Luke, the next biggest complaint is that (I’m not going to spoiler tag this because I assume by this point everyone who cares about spoilers for it will have seen it by now; if I’m wrong, stop reading this post now.) it revealed the answers to pretty much all of the questions Abrams set up in Force Awakens, and those answers pretty much all boiled down to “It doesn’t actually matter.” Which, if you like Abrams Mystery Boxes, I imagine would be pretty disappointing, but for me it was a huge relief, because I already got burned by Lost and until this movie I had been extremely worried J.J. was going to mess up Star Wars in the same way. We didn’t need New Hope to tell us the identity of Luke’s father was important, and the reveal in Empire was stronger for it not having been made a big deal of. We didn’t need to know the Emperor’s backstory for him to be an effective villain. Star Wars is not well served by a Mystery Box, and while I can’t help but wonder if J.J. and Rian might not have been on the same page, it’s entirely Abrams’ fault for leaving the Mystery Box unopened in Force Awakens and giving Johnson the power to decide what would be in it. I’m greatful that he decided nothing will be in it, and I think any critiques related to disappointing reveals that occurred in The Last Jedi should be directed at Force Awakens, because that’s the movie that set us up to be disappointed in the first place.

                    Huh... Guess I really did have more to say about it.


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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                      No, sir. The Force Awakens is a newer, shinier version of A New Hope, featuring a typical J.J. Abrams Mystery Box. The Last Jedi is about as far from that as you can get. It’s so controversial because it went so far afield of what fans expect from the series, particularly regarding the classic characters, who some fans argue act out of character based on what is already established about them in canon. After the film’s handling of Luke, the next biggest complaint is that (I’m not going to spoiler tag this because I assume by this point everyone who cares about spoilers for it will have seen it by now; if I’m wrong, stop reading this post now.) it revealed the answers to pretty much all of the questions Abrams set up in Force Awakens, and those answers pretty much all boiled down to “It doesn’t actually matter.” Which, if you like Abrams Mystery Boxes, I imagine would be pretty disappointing, but for me it was a huge relief, because I already got burned by Lost and until this movie I had been extremely worried J.J. was going to mess up Star Wars in the same way. We didn’t need New Hope to tell us the identity of Luke’s father was important, and the reveal in Empire was stronger for it not having been made a big deal of. We didn’t need to know the Emperor’s backstory for him to be an effective villain. Star Wars is not well served by a Mystery Box, and while I can’t help but wonder if J.J. and Rian might not have been on the same page, it’s entirely Abrams’ fault for leaving the Mystery Box unopened in Force Awakens and giving Johnson the power to decide what would be in it. I’m greatful that he decided nothing will be in it, and I think any critiques related to disappointing reveals that occurred in The Last Jedi should be directed at Force Awakens, because that’s the movie that set us up to be disappointed in the first place.

                      Huh... Guess I really did have more to say about it.

                      I might have been inclined to agree with you, if these movies adhered to the original EU series of events. While it's true that the original trilogy just plopped us right into the middle of the story, there were still canon novels and comics that we could pick up to find out what happened prior to that point. But ever since they decided everything that happened outside of the original trilogy and the Clone Wars saga was no longer canon, I think people are justified in demanding answers. Who are these villains, where did they come from, how did they get so powerful with nobody noticing them, and how in the holy hell did they build a 3rd death star that was several times bigger than the first two?

                      In the original story, Leia and Han actually have 3 force sensitive kids, and the evil one ends up becoming the dark lord of the Sith before he's blown straight to hell by one of the new Jedi council members, who happens to be a sentient tree person. And at some point, Palpatine even comes back by transferring his spirit into a clone body and Luke has to face him again without Vader's help next time.

                      But in the new retcon universe, the Jedi have once again been wiped out. Only this time, it happened off screen and with absolutely no explanation as to how or why. When we last left off, the empire had been defeated, the republic was set to rebuild the galaxy, and Luke was going to bring back the Jedi. But then episode 7 happened and all of that got chucked straight out the window.

                      Now those of us who have been waiting 20+ years to see what happens next have no idea what the hell they're doing with this series!
                      Last edited by Nyrufa; 01-07-2018, 02:08 AM.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                        I might have been inclined to agree with you, if these movies adhered to the original EU series of events. While it's true that the original trilogy just plopped us right into the middle of the story, there were still canon novels and comics that we could pick up to find out what happened prior to that point. But ever since they decided everything that happened outside of the original trilogy and the Clone Wars saga was no longer canon, I think people are justified in demanding answers. Who are these villains, where did they come from, how did they get so powerful with nobody noticing them, and how in the holy hell did they build a 3rd death star that was several times bigger than the first two?

                        In the original story, Leia and Han actually have 3 force sensitive kids, and the evil one ends up becoming the dark lord of the Sith before he's blown straight to hell by one of the new Jedi council members, who happens to be a sentient tree person. And at some point, Palpatine even comes back by transferring his spirit into a clone body and Luke has to face him again without Vader's help next time.

                        But in the new retcon universe, the Jedi have once again been wiped out. Only this time, it happened off screen and with absolutely no explanation as to how or why. When we last left off, the empire had been defeated, the republic was set to rebuild the galaxy, and Luke was going to bring back the Jedi. But then episode 7 happened and all of that got chucked straight out the window.

                        Now those of us who have been waiting 20+ years to see what happens next have no idea what the hell they're doing with this series!
                        This is a very different critique than “its a newer, shinier version of the original trilogy” and not one I’m particularly interested in debating. If you preferred the now-Legends EU, that’s fine. Personally, I always felt it was unnecessary expansion on films that stood perfectly well on their own, if not better. Well, definitely better in my opinion, but it was a cool thing to have out there for those who did enjoy it, and I got a handful of great video games out of it.

                        The new canon has its own expanded universe material for those who want to engage with that sort of thing. But personally, I strongly believe films should stand on their own. New Hope and Empire are both great movies even if you’ve never seen any other Star Wars movie. RotJ is not, and it’s the worst of the original trilogy. Force Awakens does not stand on its own as a film, and the fact that so many people are disappointed in The Last Jedi for not retro-actively fixing Force Awakens for them is entirely Force Awakens’s fault for not being a good enough movie on its own. Films shouldn’t rely on their sequels to make them satisfying. The Last Jedi, for me, was satisfying on its own, and revealing that the mysteries Last Jedi tried to string us along with weren’t so important after all was a very good move, not only because it put my mind at ease about Abrams being at the helm, but also because it will force Abrams to make 9 a satisfying story on its own as well.


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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                          This is a very different critique than “its a newer, shinier version of the original trilogy” and not one I’m particularly interested in debating. If you preferred the now-Legends EU, that’s fine. Personally, I always felt it was unnecessary expansion on films that stood perfectly well on their own, if not better. Well, definitely better in my opinion, but it was a cool thing to have out there for those who did enjoy it, and I got a handful of great video games out of it.

                          The new canon has its own expanded universe material for those who want to engage with that sort of thing. But personally, I strongly believe films should stand on their own. New Hope and Empire are both great movies even if you’ve never seen any other Star Wars movie. RotJ is not, and it’s the worst of the original trilogy. Force Awakens does not stand on its own as a film, and the fact that so many people are disappointed in The Last Jedi for not retro-actively fixing Force Awakens for them is entirely Force Awakens’s fault for not being a good enough movie on its own. Films shouldn’t rely on their sequels to make them satisfying. The Last Jedi, for me, was satisfying on its own, and revealing that the mysteries Last Jedi tried to string us along with weren’t so important after all was a very good move, not only because it put my mind at ease about Abrams being at the helm, but also because it will force Abrams to make 9 a satisfying story on its own as well.


                          I like the EU because it expanded more on the characters throughout the series. To be perfectly honest, both the Jedi and the Sith have been shown to be pretty friggin weak in the live action movies. They act like lifting a small rock is a difficult task, or raising a single X-Wing is some great accomplishment. Up until his death, Palpatine is supposed to have been the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived, and yet he barely does anything worthy of that reputation during his entire run on screen.

                          Meanwhile in the EU, you've got Yoda levitating several boulders that weigh many tons each, Palpatine destroys an entire planet with a tornado of Force Lightning, Luke Skywalker releases a force push that's so powerful it scatters an entire army of storm troopers... Starkiller even uses the force to rip a Star Destroyer out of orbit and bring it crashing down on the planet!


                          The movies always make a big deal about how powerful the force is and how those who tap into it are supposed to be great assets to any military, but when it comes time to deliver on that hype, they often drop the ball hard. The EU gives us a reason to fear and respect these characters.
                          Last edited by Nyrufa; 01-07-2018, 02:57 AM.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                            I like the EU because it expanded more on the characters throughout the series. To be perfectly honest, both the Jedi and the Sith have been shown to be pretty friggin weak in the live action movies. They act like lifting a small rock is a difficult task, or raising a single X-Wing is some great accomplishment. Up until his death, Palpatine is supposed to have been the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived, and yet he barely does anything worthy of that reputation during his entire run on screen.

                            Meanwhile in the EU, you've got Yoda levitating several boulders that weigh many tons each, Palpatine destroys an entire planet with a tornado of Force Lightning, Luke Skywalker releases a force push that's so powerful it scatters an entire army of storm troopers... Starkiller even uses the force to rip a Star Destroyer out of orbit and bring it crashing down on the planet!


                            The movies always make a big deal about how powerful the force is and how those who tap into it are supposed to be great assets to any military, but when it comes time to deliver on that hype, they often drop the ball hard. The EU gives us a reason to fear and respect these characters.
                            That power is all relative. Compared to what I can do, lifting a single pebble with your mind is a literal miracle, let alone an X-Wing. And throughout the original trilogy there’s this pervasive implication that the force is a whole lot more than the flashy tricks you can do with it. Yeah, mind tricks and telekinesis are cool, but the real power of the force wasn’t in Things You Could Do, it was in how it connected you to the universe. Jedi were just plain more competent than other individuals because the force was with them. It wasn’t about the Force Push and Force Choke and whatever, it was about being in-tune with the world around you, allowing Luke to defend against the training droid with the blast shield down by acting on instinct, allowing him to make impossible shots without the aid of a targeting computer.

                            For me at least, the force was far more impactful when it was applied subtly. When the Emperor shot goddamn lightning out of his fingertips, it was incredible because we had never seen the force do anything like that before. The prequels fucked that up when they had Duku do it, because it wasn’t this crazy feat only seen by the most powerful dark Jedi we had ever seen, just another one of the spells you unlock by leveling up your dark side points enough. Also, notably, the flashier, more spell-like uses of the force, like the Emperor’s lightning and Vader’s telekenetic choking, were generally the province of the dark side in the original films. It made sense for Luke to ask Yoda if the dark side was stronger because he had never seen any Jedi do the kinds of things with the force that Vader could do. And when Yoda demonstrated that he could do impressive things with it too, he proved that his answer had been truthful; the dark side is not stronger, just quicker, more seductive, easier to master.

                            Sure, all of that may have been small peanuts compared to the gonzo shit that went on in the EU, but that’s why I say the films stood better on their own. What were incredible, Awe-inspiring moments in the films alone became far less impactful by comparison. And it took the force from being this awesome, mesterious, subtle energy, that when tapped into could perform miracles to being just a space-wizard’s mana pool.

                            Two of my favorite moments to come out of Disney’s crack at Star Wars: Chirrut walking across the battlefield unharmed chanting “I’m one with the force, the force is with me,” and Luke telling Rey off for calling the Force “A power the Jedi have.”
                            Last edited by Charlaquin; 01-07-2018, 03:43 AM.


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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                              That power is all relative. Compared to what I can do, lifting a single pebble with your mind is a literal miracle, let alone an X-Wing. And throughout the original trilogy there’s this pervasive implication that the force is a whole lot more than the flashy tricks you can do with it. Yeah, mind tricks and telekinesis are cool, but the real power of the force wasn’t in Things You Could Do, it was in how it connected you to the universe. Jedi were just plain more competent than other individuals because the force was with them. It wasn’t about the Force Push and Force Choke and whatever, it was about being in-tune with the world around you, allowing Luke to defend against the training droid with the blast shield down by acting on instinct, allowing him to make impossible shots without the aid of a targeting computer.

                              For me at least, the force was far more impactful when it was applied subtly. When the Emperor shot goddamn lightning out of his fingertips, it was incredible because we had never seen the force do anything like that before. The prequels fucked that up when they had Duku do it, because it wasn’t this crazy feat only seen by the most powerful dark Jedi we had ever seen, just another one of the spells you unlock by leveling up your dark side points enough. Also, notably, the flashier, more spell-like uses of the force, like the Emperor’s lightning and Vader’s telekenetic choking, were generally the province of the dark side in the original films. It made sense for Luke to ask Yoda if the dark side was stronger because he had never seen any Jedi do the kinds of things with the force that Vader could do. And when Yoda demonstrated that he could do impressive things with it too, he proved that his answer had been truthful; the dark side is not stronger, just quicker, more seductive, easier to master.

                              Sure, all of that may have been small peanuts compared to the gonzo shit that went on in the EU, but that’s why I say the films stood better on their own. What were incredible, Awe-inspiring moments in the films alone became far less impactful by comparison. And it took the force from being this awesome, mesterious, subtle energy, that when tapped into could perform miracles to being just a space-wizard’s mana pool.

                              Two of my favorite moments to come out of Disney’s crack at Star Wars: Chirrut walking across the battlefield unharmed chanting “I’m one with the force, the force is with me,” and Luke telling Rey off for calling the Force “A power the Jedi have.”


                              I can kind of see where you're coming from, but it's a point of view that I didn't share growing up. Watching these movies as a kid, I was never very impressed with the use of the force or lightsaber combat. I mean, sure, it sounded like an interesting concept, but it was always shown as this slow, clumsy set of powers that required more concentration than it was worth. In the time it took Yoda to levitate that ship out of the swamp, a mere Stormtrooper could shoot him five times in the face. The duels between Vader and Luke / Obiwan which everybody likes to claim were amazing came down to little more than them gently tapping their sabers together and making cool laser noises.


                              The prequels (and I can't believe I'm saying anything nice about them) did a better job of depicting what these characters were truly capable of. Outside of the EU, the most impressive thing Vader did with the force was choke one of his own men from across the galaxy. Which, if he had that power, why didn't he just choke out every rebel leader once they were identified? The Sith maintain their power through inspiring fear. I say the threat of dropping dead without any warning is far more terrifying than sending an army to your planet and giving you a fighting chance.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                                It’s so controversial because it went so far afield of what fans expect from the series, particularly regarding the classic characters, who some fans argue act out of character based on what is already established about them in canon.
                                I disagree with this part when people praise the film. To me it didnt went against some sort of expectations of SWs as whole but against the dull plot points set by JJ.

                                Is like the movie set up the most cliche plot points possible and then pat itself on the back when it didnt follow them. Which....okay? Good on you but we could have done it without the setting up of the cliche plot points in the first place.

                                And is kind of a problem of this new trilogy on how it works with each director doing its own thing and the next one doing whatever it wants. 2 years from now my bet is JJ is gonna go "buuuut actually, Rey parents are super important!!!!"


                                Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                                We didn’t need to know the Emperor’s backstory for him to be an effective villain.
                                I disagree with this, the OT existed in a vaccum and only had to answer to itself at the time. This new trilogy is part of a shared universe, the continuation of the previous 7 movies. So having this villain pop of nowhere with this mastery of the force really required an explanation even if he wasnt central to the plot.

                                Is like making the Lord of the Ring 4, and a new bad guy appears name SOURON who has the exact same setup of Sauron but no explanation of where he comes from.

                                If Rian wanted to do his own thing and not having to respond to a shared universe then he shouldnt be directing SW and make his own space opera trilogy "Space wars".

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