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  • #61
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    I can kind of see where you're coming from, but it's a point of view that I didn't share growing up. Watching these movies as a kid, I was never very impressed with the use of the force or lightsaber combat. I mean, sure, it sounded like an interesting concept, but it was always shown as this slow, clumsy set of powers that required more concentration than it was worth. In the time it took Yoda to levitate that ship out of the swamp, a mere Stormtrooper could shoot him five times in the face. The duels between Vader and Luke / Obiwan which everybody likes to claim were amazing came down to little more than them gently tapping their sabers together and making cool laser noises.
    Again though, what was cool about the Force wasn’t the set of Powers it gave you. It was cool because it connected the Jedi with the universe. Yoda lifting the X-wing wasn’t impressive because I thought it would have any value in combat. Wars not make one great. It was impressive because it proved that to him, lifting the ship was no different than lifting a rock, which was no different from lifting his hand; because he was connected to it by the force. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force flow around you. Here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, yes, even between the land and the ship.

    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    The prequels (and I can't believe I'm saying anything nice about them) did a better job of depicting what these characters were truly capable of.
    The prequels unquestionably had more impressive fight choreography and displays of force use. The prequels also completely missed the point of what made Jedi cool. Granted, the fight with Maul in Phantom Menace was rad as hell, and most of the final fight between Anakin and Obi Wan was very cool. But Yoda fighting with a light Saber was a travesty, and the force use that was on display throughout the prequels cheapened the Force significantly.

    Originally posted by Nyrufa;n1173991[COLOR=#252C2F
    Outside of the EU, the most impressive thing Vader did with the force was choke one of his own men from across the galaxy. Which, if he had that power, why didn't he just choke out every rebel leader once they were identified? The Sith maintain their power through inspiring fear. I say the threat of dropping dead without any warning is far more terrifying than sending an army to your planet and giving you a fighting chance.[/COLOR]
    Eh, he was seeing the guy through a viewing screen. I don’t imagine many of the rebel leaders were Skyping with Vader. Again though, that was a cool moment because it showed that Vader’s connection to captain... Uhhh... Needa, I think? Through the force was not contingent on proximity, just like Yoda’s connection to the X-wing wasn’t contingent on size. Not just because of its potential military applications. The power of the force goes way beyond the various ways it can be used to make things dead.


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    • #62
      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
      It's called "a fandom" and they can be extremely passionate about whatever it is they're into, to the point of hivemind mentality.
      Yea...seems that way sadly..

      Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
      Huh... Guess I really did have more to say about it.
      And yea, you did! Nice!



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      • #63
        Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
        And is kind of a problem of this new trilogy on how it works with each director doing its own thing and the next one doing whatever it wants. 2 years from now my bet is JJ is gonna go "buuuut actually, Rey parents are super important!!!!"
        I seriously hope not. I mean, it'll be his movie to do with as he wants, but I wouldn't want him to do that. I like the idea that a "nobody" could be a super powerful force user, as it gets back to the ideas in the OT that anyone could use the Force, not just a few special people who have a high enough concentration of midichlorians(ugggg...). Plus I like that we have some characters that aren't related to anyone special.

        Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
        If Rian wanted to do his own thing and not having to respond to a shared universe then he shouldnt be directing SW and make his own space opera trilogy "Space wars".
        I'm pretty happy with what he did with this movie. I don't think he want to do his own thing per se, I can tell he's a big Star Wars. That's why I'm super excited to see what he'll be doing with his own trilogy of Star Wars films. They'll be set in the Star Wars Galaxy, but unrelated to the "Skywalker Saga". I think that's going to be great and I'm highly looking forward to it.



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        • #64
          I finally got a chance to see The Last Jedi last weekend, and I have to say, having grown up reading series like the Young Jedi Knights stuff, and advancing into the more adult-oriented EU with stuff like the Rogue Squadron series, The New Jedi Order, Truce at Bakura, The Courtship of Princess Leia, Heir to the Empire, and various anthologies...

          The new trilogy is so much better than pretty much all of that. I'm not gonna lie, I didn't particularly care for the EU when I revisited it as an adult. It was typically fan fiction-level writing that I enjoyed at the time because I just wanted more Star Wars. And for a time that was good.

          But I've known since Disney announced they weren't gonna bother with the Extended Universe and I actually applauded. Even if I liked most of the EU, I think it's ridiculous to expect whatever poor writer would be forced to do a new trilogy to respect not only the stuff that occurred during that time period in the EU, but in the future too (because Star Wars: Legacy was a thing). I always knew that it'd be an adaptation of that material at the most, and I think they've done a really good job. Especially with The Last Jedi.

          Highlights:

          The Hyperspace Jump
          How the Force was expanded (or Awakened, )
          Fight scene in the throne room
          Rey and her story in particular
          Everything about Luke (I'm especially happy that despite Mark Hamill expressing his dislike for what they did with the character, he did an amazing performance: the man is a professional)
          Poe's arc, Laura Dern (I was surprised and delighted how she turned out, and Rian Johnson really made me feel how Poe felt about her
          Everything about Leia. Everything.


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          • #65
            Originally posted by BigDamnHero View Post
            I finally got a chance to see The Last Jedi last weekend, and I have to say, having grown up reading series like the Young Jedi Knights stuff, and advancing into the more adult-oriented EU with stuff like the Rogue Squadron series, The New Jedi Order, Truce at Bakura, The Courtship of Princess Leia, Heir to the Empire, and various anthologies...

            The new trilogy is so much better than pretty much all of that. I'm not gonna lie, I didn't particularly care for the EU when I revisited it as an adult. It was typically fan fiction-level writing that I enjoyed at the time because I just wanted more Star Wars. And for a time that was good.

            But I've known since Disney announced they weren't gonna bother with the Extended Universe and I actually applauded. Even if I liked most of the EU, I think it's ridiculous to expect whatever poor writer would be forced to do a new trilogy to respect not only the stuff that occurred during that time period in the EU, but in the future too (because Star Wars: Legacy was a thing). I always knew that it'd be an adaptation of that material at the most, and I think they've done a really good job. Especially with The Last Jedi.

            Highlights:

            The Hyperspace Jump
            How the Force was expanded (or Awakened, )
            Fight scene in the throne room
            Rey and her story in particular
            Everything about Luke (I'm especially happy that despite Mark Hamill expressing his dislike for what they did with the character, he did an amazing performance: the man is a professional)
            Poe's arc, Laura Dern (I was surprised and delighted how she turned out, and Rian Johnson really made me feel how Poe felt about her
            Everything about Leia. Everything.
            I'm really glad to hear you enjoyed it. I've been seeing so much hate for it out there in the Internet, it's been nice to hear from people who actually enjoy it!

            And I'm with you on the old EU. While I liked some of it at the time, they really didn't have a choice but to start over with a new EU and try to take things in a fresh direction, while borrowing some of the better stuff from the old EU.

            Totally with you on your highlights too! I was a bit worried about that infamous quote from Mark Hamill, but he did an amazing job with it, and I'm glad he's seemingly come around on it.


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            • #66
              Do you think Darth Vader would get mad if people started calling him Darf Vader? Would he even notice?

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              • #67
                Originally posted by BigDamnHero View Post
                Rey and her story in particular
                What story would that be? She's a total Mary Sue!

                From the start, she's demonstrated to be this natural prodigy with the force and masters techniques with Luke in record time. And to make matters worse, there is no explanation for it!

                Aniken had a reason for why he was so powerful: he was genetically engineered to be so! While Luke and Leia are his biological children and so can be expected to have inherited some of his miracle genes.

                But Rey? She's just some nobody from a backwater planet who has godly talent for mastering the secrets of the universe. Given her raw talent, everybody expected her to be connected to the Skywalker family in some way. But nope, turns out her parents were a couple of nameless drunks who abandoned her at a young age and are probably dead in a gutter somewhere. That's all the backstory this movie thinks we need to describe where she came from!

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                  What story would that be? She's a total Mary Sue!

                  From the start, she's demonstrated to be this natural prodigy with the force and masters techniques with Luke in record time. And to make matters worse, there is no explanation for it!

                  Aniken had a reason for why he was so powerful: he was genetically engineered to be so! While Luke and Leia are his biological children and so can be expected to have inherited some of his miracle genes.

                  But Rey? She's just some nobody from a backwater planet who has godly talent for mastering the secrets of the universe. Given her raw talent, everybody expected her to be connected to the Skywalker family in some way. But nope, turns out her parents were a couple of nameless drunks who abandoned her at a young age and are probably dead in a gutter somewhere. That's all the backstory this movie thinks we need to describe where she came from!
                  Power alone is not what informs an arc. Rey's story arc revolves around her abandonment issues and her need to feel like she belongs somewhere in a universe that seemingly continues to destroy the stability of her relationships while also learning to overcome the desire to be special in some way outside of her own capabilities and instead simply be there for those who need her where no one was for her. And that's a pretty damn rich story in these two films alone.

                  Also, Luke shoved a god damn photon torpedo into a sharp 90 degree turn after three days at best of extremely minimal training. The Force is OP when needed, as Yoda reinforces in Empire.



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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                    Aniken had a reason for why he was so powerful: he was genetically engineered to be so!
                    "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter!"

                    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                    She's just some nobody from a backwater planet who has godly talent for mastering the secrets of the universe.
                    "In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto, 'Anyone can cook.' But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere. It is difficult to imagine more humble origins than those of the genius now cooking at Gusteau's, who is, in this critic's opinion, nothing less than the finest chef in France. I will be returning to Gusteau's soon, hungry for more."

                    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                    That's all the backstory this movie thinks we need to describe where she came from!
                    And they were right.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                      What story would that be? She's a total Mary Sue!
                      Mary Sue is a meaningless term that serves only to express one's distaste for a character. If your issue with Rey is that she's strong with the force without explanation, just say that.

                      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                      From the start, she's demonstrated to be this natural prodigy with the force and masters techniques with Luke in record time.
                      Luke was demonstrated to be a natural prodigy with the force and mastered techniques with Yoda in an extremely short time.

                      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                      And to make matters worse, there is no explanation for it!
                      Did you fall asleep during Snoke's "darkness rises, and light to meet it" line?

                      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                      Aniken had a reason for why he was so powerful: he was genetically engineered to be so! While Luke and Leia are his biological children and so can be expected to have inherited some of his miracle genes.
                      Notice how midichlorians were almost universally despised for ruining the mystique of the force... right up until it became convenient to use them as a point of contrast between Luke and Rey.

                      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                      But Rey? She's just some nobody from a backwater planet who has godly talent for mastering the secrets of the universe.
                      Kind of like someone else we know.

                      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                      Given her raw talent, everybody expected her to be connected to the Skywalker family in some way. But nope, turns out her parents were a couple of nameless drunks who abandoned her at a young age and are probably dead in a gutter somewhere. That's all the backstory this movie thinks we need to describe where she came from!
                      And thank the Wills for that! The force doesn't belong to one bloodline alone, and it's about time the films stopped acting like it did. I could rattle off a list of absurdly gifted force users from Legends continuity whose ancestry was never questioned. Because that's not how the force works. If it was, there would be no jedi, considering they were forbidden to marry or have children.


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                      • #71
                        Point of curiosity, Nyru: You watch Last Jedi yet or just working off of secondhand sources?

                        Clarity: In case that seems like a call against you should that be the case, I judge a lot of things based on secondhand sources.
                        Last edited by ArcaneArts; 07-17-2018, 02:43 AM.


                        Sean K.I.W. Steele, Freelance Writer
                        Work Blog Coming Soon
                        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                        Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                        • #72
                          For all that people claim to hate the prequels, they certainly wholeheartedly agree with its suggestion that in order to be important, you must be related to someone else who was.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                            Point of curiosity, Nyru: You watch Last Jedi yet or just working off of secondhand sources?

                            Clarity: In case that seems like a call against you should that be the case, I judge a lot of things based on secondhand sources.


                            After watching The Force Awakens and realizing that I've already seen that story a dozen times over the last 20 years? No, I did not go see The Last Jedi. In fact, the very name of the movie infuriates me, because the entire point of the original trilogy was leading up to the RETURN of the Jedi. And then over the course of these last 2 movies, we switch back to the Jedi being driven to the brink of extinction. Fuck you Disney, fuck you!

                            My only consolation is that Lucas is probably laughing his ass off right now as he watches the people who paid him billions of dollars for the franchise continue to drive it into the ground.


                            But from what I've heard from reviewers and seen through online clips, it sounds like I made the right decision by not seeing the movie.


                            Q. What's the mystery behind this Snoke character?

                            A. There isn't one. He's dead now. Shut up!


                            -------------------------------------


                            Q. What's the story behind Rey's lineage?

                            A . Her parents didn't want her and dumped her on "Not Tatooine" because reasons.

                            Q. Well... that's disappointing!


                            ----------------------------------


                            Q. Why is Rey so powerful with the force with little effort involved?

                            A. WHY? Do you have something against strong, independent female characters?

                            Q. That's not a valid-

                            A. OH MY GOD, SEXIST!


                            ----------------------------------


                            Q. Why did the pink haired lady intentionally make her own troops think they were heading into a suicide mission they had no chance of succeeding at?

                            A. Were you not paying attention? She had this 'brilliant' plan set up that would have actually saved everybody's lives!

                            Q. Okay, but why didn't she divulge this information when her men decided to turn against her, rather than charge off to their supposed deaths?

                            A. Because, you should blindly follow the orders of your superior and never question their tactical decisions. Even when they are obviously not in your best interests!

                            Q. Isn't that what the Empire and the First Order -

                            A. Oh my god, sexist!


                            ----------------------------------

                            Q. So if one ship traveling at hyper speed can destroy the First Order's flag ship in one shot, why don't you just make a bunch of unmanned drones and launch them into the enemy fleet?

                            A. Eh... reply hazy, ask again next movie!

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                              Mary Sue is a meaningless term that serves only to express one's distaste for a character. If your issue with Rey is that she's strong with the force without explanation, just say that.


                              Luke was demonstrated to be a natural prodigy with the force and mastered techniques with Yoda in an extremely short time.


                              Did you fall asleep during Snoke's "darkness rises, and light to meet it" line?


                              Notice how midichlorians were almost universally despised for ruining the mystique of the force... right up until it became convenient to use them as a point of contrast between Luke and Rey.


                              Kind of like someone else we know.


                              And thank the Wills for that! The force doesn't belong to one bloodline alone, and it's about time the films stopped acting like it did. I could rattle off a list of absurdly gifted force users from Legends continuity whose ancestry was never questioned. Because that's not how the force works. If it was, there would be no jedi, considering they were forbidden to marry or have children.
                              Interesting that you chose to comment on Luke mastering the force in record time before addressing the fact he was Aniken's son. And as for people hating the idea of midichlorians, I'm not fond of the idea either. But unless they come out and say that they've retconned their existence, there's no reason for why Rey should be as naturally gifted as she is at this point in the story. Even Luke got his ass kicked when he rushed off to challenge Darth Vader and had to return to Yoda for additional training before he was ready to face him again.

                              Even Mark Hamill himself was confused by the way they chose to handle his character in the movie, and questioned why they even chose to include Luke Skywalker in the first place if all they're going to do is have him give up the fight and then kill him off. Aaaand, I just realized that Luke basically pulled an Obi Wan by "dying" in battle against the Lord of the Sith. Yep... yep... this new trilogy thinks we're either too young to have seen the original, or too stupid to follow simple pattern recognition.


                              The Jedi were forbidden to marry and have children, but that doesn't mean the Sith were.

                              And on that note, Jedi and Sith are NOT the only users of the Force throughout the galaxy, either. There are a bunch of different tribal and spiritual cultures in the Starwars Cosmology who tap into the force without following the codes of either order. These cultural groups breed and pass on their abilities quite often, leading to strong family lines of shamans, priests, mystics and sorcerers.
                              Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-17-2018, 05:42 AM.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                                My only consolation is that Lucas is probably laughing his ass off right now as he watches the people who paid him billions of dollars for the franchise continue to drive it into the ground.
                                I really don't care about the "quality of the story" arguments. It's Star Wars, the franchise where the writing has always sucked, but that's not actually why people love it anyway.

                                But, um, you might want to not take much consolation in this. Disney knows how to print money. TLJ brought in 1.3 billion dollars in box office sales. Solo is the only Disney helmed Star Wars film to bomb (saying something about audiences and what they want to see), and that loss was a drop in the bucket compared to what TFA and TLJ have netted them.

                                The only thing Lucas is laughing about, is how he doesn't have to deal with SW fan backlash anymore.

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