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  • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

    ...Nyrufa, you don't have a leg to stand on if you haven't even seen one of the movies yourself and are only going by the opinions and reviews of others, out of context.

    So no.

    I have seen Episode 7, and I've seen enough clips and reviews of Episode 8 to get a good idea of what's going on.

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    • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
      I have seen Episode 7, and I've seen enough clips and reviews of Episode 8 to get a good idea of what's going on.
      "Clips and reviews" is still not the same thing as seeing the whole movie.

      So still no.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

        ...Nyrufa, you don't have a leg to stand on if you haven't even seen one of the movies yourself and are only going by the opinions and reviews of others, out of context.

        So no.
        Okay, quick change of bats here, I'll actually defend him on this one.

        I mean, for fucks sakes, I have done the same thing with BvS and Transformers movies-it's not unfair to argue that you don't like a movie based on everything around it. I do have a contention against what seems like the sources Nyru uses for the outside context of Star Wars, but that's not really the problem at hand. You can, contrary to popular belief, know you won't like a film without seeing it, and can probably even accurately assess what is bad craft wise from outside of it-I have gone on tirades about certain films like BvS with people who saw and have been told I was actually right on a lot of those fronts-but it's not easy (Critically analyzing the craft of storytelling is literally my bachelor-degree earned trade) and not everyone can do it.

        I have issue with how Nyru engages in this argument, but I will not fault him for not watching the movie.

        Of course, I'm also really not going to engage with him about the craft of the story, even though I really think he's wrong on that front-which is funny, because despite enjoying the hell out of it and even sort of thinking it's probably one of the two best stories craft-wise in Star Wars, I still don't think it's a great story in those terms.


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        • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          After watching The Force Awakens and realizing that I've already seen that story a dozen times over the last 20 years? No, I did not go see The Last Jedi. In fact, the very name of the movie infuriates me, because the entire point of the original trilogy was leading up to the RETURN of the Jedi. And then over the course of these last 2 movies, we switch back to the Jedi being driven to the brink of extinction. Fuck you Disney, fuck you!
          If you want to blame someone for driving the Jedi back to the brink of extinction, blame J.J. Abrams. It was TFA that set up Luke’s attempt at starting a new jedi order having failed, not TLJ. And if you had actually watched TLJ, you would have realized that the whole point was that Luke’s belief that by failing to re-establish the jedi order he had doomed himself to be the last jedi was misguided. The force does not belong to the jedi order and powerful bloodlines, it’s in every living thing and it has a will of its own. Or, you might have realized it, if you paid attention to the story instead of vigilantly watching for nits to pick.

          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          Q. What's the mystery behind this Snoke character?

          A. There isn't one. He's dead now. Shut up!
          The mystery behind Snoke’s character was a stupid Abrams-ism that had no bearing on the actual story. Getting rid of the lame not-emperor cleaned up the busy plot and allowed the story to be more focused. Yes, it’s lame that he was set up to be important in the first place, but again, that’s TFA’s fault, not TLJ’s.

          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          Q. What's the story behind Rey's lineage?

          A . Her parents didn't want her and dumped her on "Not Tatooine" because reasons.

          Q. Well... that's disappointing!
          It was pretty obvious that was going to be how it turned out. Again, the fact that her parents weren’t anyone important was set up in TFA.

          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          Q. Why is Rey so powerful with the force with little effort involved?
          She’s Kylo Ren’s light counterpart. He’s so powerful because of his Skywalker lineage, and as the force has a will of its own and desires to be in balance, it chose someone to be his counter-balance. The fact that the person it chose was not related to anyone important strengthens the message that you don’t have to be born from greatness to be great. Another thing that was actually explained in the movie if you watched it and payed attention to it.

          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          A. WHY? Do you have something against strong, independent female characters?

          Q. That's not a valid-

          A. OH MY GOD, SEXIST!
          No one but you has brought sexism into this conversation.

          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          Q. Why did the pink haired lady intentionally make her own troops think they were heading into a suicide mission they had no chance of succeeding at?

          A. Were you not paying attention? She had this 'brilliant' plan set up that would have actually saved everybody's lives!

          Q. Okay, but why didn't she divulge this information when her men decided to turn against her, rather than charge off to their supposed deaths?
          Because the plan only works if the Last Order doesn’t know it. That’s why plans like this are kept on a need to know basis. She told the people who needed to know, Poe just wasn’t one of those people. And in fact, his behavior up until that point had really not demonstrated that he could be trusted with sensitive information like that. Holdo had no reason to risk her plan being leaked by telling Poe.

          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          A. Because, you should blindly follow the orders of your superior and never question their tactical decisions. Even when they are obviously not in your best interests!

          Q. Isn't that what the Empire and the First Order -
          That’s how militaries work. If you want to argue that this is a problem with militaries, I won’t disagree. But it is how they work.

          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          A. Oh my god, sexist!
          Again, no one here but you has said that.

          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          Q. So if one ship traveling at hyper speed can destroy the First Order's flag ship in one shot, why don't you just make a bunch of unmanned drones and launch them into the enemy fleet?

          A. Eh... reply hazy, ask again next movie!
          That’s pretty fair.

          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          Interesting that you chose to comment on Luke mastering the force in record time before addressing the fact he was Aniken's son.
          I addressed your points in the order you brought them up. But I did address Luke’s lineage.

          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          And as for people hating the idea of midichlorians, I'm not fond of the idea either. But unless they come out and say that they've retconned their existence, there's no reason for why Rey should be as naturally gifted as she is at this point in the story.
          Darkness rises and light to meet it. Kylo is powerful because of midichlorians or whatever. Rey is powerful because the force needed an anti-Kylo.

          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          Even Luke got his ass kicked when he rushed off to challenge Darth Vader and had to return to Yoda for additional training before he was ready to face him again.
          He didn’t get any additional training from Yoda. Yoda died within minutes of Luke returning to Degobah.

          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          Even Mark Hamill himself was confused by the way they chose to handle his character in the movie, and questioned why they even chose to include Luke Skywalker in the first place if all they're going to do is have him give up the fight and then kill him off.
          He did eventually agree to train Rey, and did eventually join the fight, sacrificing himself to buy the resistance time to escape.

          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          Aaaand, I just realized that Luke basically pulled an Obi Wan by "dying" in battle against the Lord of the Sith. Yep... yep... this new trilogy thinks we're either too young to have seen the original, or too stupid to follow simple pattern recognition.
          Or understands poetic symmetry. I can’t imagine a more appropriate way for Luke to go than sacrificing himself nonviolently to save the force of hope in the galaxy and the legacy of the jedi, just as his master did for him.

          That said, yes, generally speaking this trillogy is for the new generation of fans who may or may not have seen the originals, but certainly didn’t grow up with them like we did. Hammil even retracted his statements about the character of Luke when he realized it wasn’t Luke’s story any more.

          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          The Jedi were forbidden to marry and have children, but that doesn't mean the Sith were.

          And on that note, Jedi and Sith are NOT the only users of the Force throughout the galaxy, either. There are a bunch of different tribal and spiritual cultures in the Starwars Cosmology who tap into the force without following the codes of either order. These cultural groups breed and pass on their abilities quite often, leading to strong family lines of shamans, priests, mystics and sorcerers.
          So you’re saying that all Jedi before like were descended either from sith or from these communities of force sensitives? I don’t think that holds up. Force sensitivity canonically manifests in individuals seemingly at random all the time. Quick, who were Reven’s parents? Bane’s? Yoda’s?


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          • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

            "Clips and reviews" is still not the same thing as seeing the whole movie.

            So still no.

            I don't have to see the whole movie when I stop caring about whether or not information is classified as a spoiler.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
              If you want to blame someone for driving the Jedi back to the brink of extinction, blame J.J. Abrams.


              The mystery behind Snoke’s character was a stupid Abrams-ism that had no bearing on the actual story. Getting rid of the lame not-emperor cleaned up the busy plot and allowed the story to be more focused. Yes, it’s lame that he was set up to be important in the first place, but again, that’s TFA’s fault, not TLJ’s.
              That, right there is my complaint about the new Star Wars movies in a nutshell. There's no coherent vision and no sense of direction. Abrams made a movie, set up a lot of interesting ideas, and then Johnson came along and ignored those ideas or turned them on their head. His goal was to make his own movie rather than a movie that built on what Abrams had written. And Johnson has admitted he has no clue what Abrams will do in the next movie, if Abrams will keep to Johnson's vision or go back to his own vision from TFA. Heck, maybe Abrams really liked Snoke and will have him reappear with robot legs! (I hope not but it's possible)

              When making a trilogy of movies it's vitally important to have a coherent vision and a set storyline. Making individual movies, by different directors with different visions and goals is going to end up with the movies in the trilogy feeling very different and off from one another which is not a good thing.

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              • You mean like how George Lucas only directed the first movie of the original trilogy, and ESB and RotJ were directed by Irvin Kershner and Richard Marquand, respectively? Having a single creative vision is what gets you the prequel trilogy.

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                • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post


                  She’s Kylo Ren’s light counterpart. He’s so powerful because of his Skywalker lineage, and as the force has a will of its own and desires to be in balance, it chose someone to be his counter-balance. The fact that the person it chose was not related to anyone important strengthens the message that you don’t have to be born from greatness to be great. Another thing that was actually explained in the movie if you watched it and payed attention to it.


                  No one but you has brought sexism into this conversation.


                  Because the plan only works if the Last Order doesn’t know it. That’s why plans like this are kept on a need to know basis. She told the people who needed to know, Poe just wasn’t one of those people. And in fact, his behavior up until that point had really not demonstrated that he could be trusted with sensitive information like that. Holdo had no reason to risk her plan being leaked by telling Poe.


                  That’s how militaries work. If you want to argue that this is a problem with militaries, I won’t disagree. But it is how they work.



                  So you’re saying that all Jedi before like were descended either from sith or from these communities of force sensitives? I don’t think that holds up. Force sensitivity canonically manifests in individuals seemingly at random all the time. Quick, who were Reven’s parents? Bane’s? Yoda’s?


                  1 - So are we just chucking out the Rule of 2, then? The reason why there are only ever 2 Sith at a time is because they realized that the more force users there were, the more stretched out their power became, and thus the weaker the individuals it produced. By slaughtering the old Sith Order and allowing the Dark Side to coalesce into only one or two disciples at a time, they could harness vast amounts of power that they couldn't access before.

                  2 - That was actually a commentary on the generic response to questioning Rey as a character.

                  3 - I once again repeat my previous question: Why didn't she explain this when her own men were turning against her and therefor the plan was no longer a viable option? Instead, she chose to get angry at the man who thought she was insane and was just trying to save their lives. That is NOT how militaries work. If you convinced your men that you were intentionally leading them into a death trap and refused to explain the reason for your actions, you would be relieved of active command and probably receive a court martial or a dishonorable discharge from service.


                  4 - No, but I will bring up the fact that Luke and Leia are not the only cases in which the idea of a somebody inheriting a strong connection to the force from their bloodline has been exhibited throughout the series. in the Force Unleashed games, Starkiller is himself the son of a Jedi, and they are always on the look out for young force sensitives to add to their ranks. Who's to say they didn't visit spiritually enlightened planets specifically because they knew they were likely to find candidates there?


                  Any information surrounding Yoda's family life is a subject of frustration even at the best of times. As far as I'm aware, Lucas has to this day refused to divulge the name, culture or home planet of Yoda's race. It's not just Yoda who's a mystery, it's every member of his species. They're basically just super powered muppets whenever they appear in the series.
                  Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-17-2018, 02:42 PM.

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                  • Okay, I do also have to say this:

                    THe Rule of 2 was always dumb.


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                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
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                    • Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                      Okay, I do also have to say this:

                      THe Rule of 2 was always dumb.
                      Oh God, thank you. I did not want that to be my only contribution to the thread and thus I kept lurking, but yes. Thanks for saying it. That was one of the dumbest things in a setting filled with dumb things of various magnitude.

                      (Don't hate me for that last one, I love Star Wars, but does not mean I can't see the flaws here and there)
                      Last edited by Cinder; 07-17-2018, 03:01 PM.


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                      • Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                        Having a single creative vision is what gets you the prequel trilogy.
                        Lucas was the core writer and when he was writing out Episode 4, he had an idea of what was going to happen in Episode 5 and 6. Based on the interviews with Johnson and Abrams that does not seem to be the case at all with the new trilogy. Instead each director has just made a singular movie and the subsequent director can take what he wants to leave it, which is where we get weird things like Snoke.

                        And yeah, as of right now I think the prequel trilogy is better overall than Episode 7 and 8 have been. Of course there's always the chance that Episode 9 could be amazing, though that would likely require Abrams to go back and change up some of the stuff that Johnson decided to do in Episode 8.
                        Last edited by AnubisXy; 07-17-2018, 03:18 PM.

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                        • Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                          THe Rule of 2 was always dumb.
                          I feel like this might be an understatement. The Rule of 2 was severely dumb.

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                          • Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                            I feel like this might be an understatement. The Rule of 2 was severely dumb.
                            There are more things that deserve the severely adverb, like Leia saying they're probably bugged and then leading the Falcon to the Rebel Base anyways.

                            EDIT: Though to be fair, that does just makes things easier from certain perspectives, so I suppose I can't fault it too much.
                            Last edited by ArcaneArts; 07-17-2018, 03:17 PM.


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                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
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                            • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                              1 - So are we just chucking out the Rule of 2, then? The reason why there are only ever 2 Sith at a time is because they realized that the more force users there were, the more stretched out their power became, and thus the weaker the individuals it produced. By slaughtering the old Sith Order and allowing the Dark Side to coalesce into only one or two disciples at a time, they could harness vast amounts of power that they couldn't access before.
                              Ok first of all, that’s not the canon reason for the rule of 2, that’s a fan theory. Second of all, which is it? Does force power come from genetics, or from how many other people are using your side of the force? Cause if it’s the latter, guess how many Jedi the light side is distributed between?

                              Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                              2 - That was actually a commentary on the generic response to questioning Rey as a character.
                              The generic response that no one here gave. You’re constructing a strawman, giving a poor argument against your own point so you can easily counter it, while ignoring the actual arguments against your point.

                              Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                              3 - I once again repeat my previous question: Why didn't she explain this when her own men were turning against her and therefor the plan was no longer a viable option? Instead, she chose to get angry at the man who thought she was insane and was just trying to save their lives. That is NOT how militaries work. If you convinced your men that you were intentionally leading them into a death trap and refused to explain the reason for your actions, you would be relieved of active command and probably receive a court martial or a dishonorable discharge from service.
                              She didn’t convince her men she was leading them into a death trap. Poe did. Further proving why he was not someone who could be trusted. If anyone were to receive a court Marshall and dishonorable discharge, it would be Poe.

                              Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                              4 - No, but I will bring up the fact that Luke and Leia are not the only cases in which the idea of a somebody inheriting a strong connection to the force from their bloodline has been exhibited throughout the series. in the Force Unleashed games, Starkiller is himself the son of a Jedi, and they are always on the look out for young force sensitives to add to their ranks. Who's to say they didn't visit spiritually enlightened planets specifically because they knew they were likely to find candidates there?
                              Sure, that definitely happens. People also manifest force sensitivity seemingly at random. Both are supported in canon, and Rey is an example of the latter.

                              Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                              Any information surrounding Yoda's family life is a subject of frustration even at the best of times. As far as I'm aware, Lucas has to this day refused to divulge the name, culture or home planet of Yoda's race. It's not just Yoda who's a mystery, it's every member of his species. They're basically just super powered muppets whenever they appear in the series.
                              Its almost like who a character’s parents are doesn’t really matter.


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                              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                              • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                                Its almost like who a character’s parents are doesn’t really matter.
                                Or at least, doesn't have to.

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