Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Art, Criticism and Freedom. (Contains Disturbing Topics, Please Be Aware)

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Art, Criticism and Freedom. (Contains Disturbing Topics, Please Be Aware)

    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

    You know what that film is about, right?

    As to not further derail the Inspirational thread...

    I do Isator, I find it abhorent. Never watched it, and probably never will.

    I would if I had academic objectives around it, like if I was a film student, or studied race relations. But I don't.

    You know that this year's film festivals featured films of intense violence, sexual and otherwise, visited including on children, right? To critical acclaim, right? There are extremely graphic and heavy movies being produced today.

    I really don't understand people that would subject themselves to that.

    I will never consume that. Not even in cartoons, much less live action.

    But I will never argue for total censorship.

    Restrict age of attendance, exhibition venue and hours, include disclaimers? Totally for it.

    Censorship? Never. The cost is immeasurable.

    I don't even consider myself an old school tough guy, you know? I'm squeamish as hell. Hate gore horror, never watch it. I cry all the time in Holocaust movies, and everytime I see the Passion of the Christ, even not being religious myself. And since I'm being completely honest here, some Disney movies too (I hate you Mufasa).

    But the old adage "sticks and stones..." rings true for me.

    As long as people aren't harassing you to expose you to things you don't like, I don't believe you have any case to restrict what they want to say.

    DISCLAIMER:

    This is NOT the "Female Sexual Objectification in Fantasy Art Discussion" thread.

    Talking about this in a thread about freedom to produce and consume art, and the proper time and place to criticize such art, is just screaming "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!". It is not central to the topic at hand, and is thread drift.

    This discussion is intended to be philosophical (drivel?) about freedom to produce and consume art, when and where to criticize it. If you want to argue that it is always right to criticize "harmful art", that is a fair point, and we can dive into what makes art harmful, who decides said art is harmful etc...

    DO NOT BRING ANYONES SPECIFIC ISSUES INTO IT. They will be considered thread drift and treated as such.

    Please read the topic and first post to confirm what THIS thread is about.

    Please understand that discussion of any other matters is shifting the topic. Which I am very nonchalant about and will engage however I understand is appropriate.

    DO NOTE that I will not bring my issues into a platform you create to discuss your issues, as I do realize that is impolite and against the forum rules.

    I DO NOT CARE about your rules about why you are free to shift topics but I am not. Unless you are an elightened debater armed with objective truth, THIS WILL NOT CHANGE.

    If you need to label me anything you want and feel a need to tell me about it, I simply request you respect the rules and do not insult me while you're at it. I would also appreciate if you re examine these specific needs of yours, and check if anyone else already expressed similar things, before you post. If you decide not to post, that will be good, as you won't waste your time posting, and I won't waste my time refuting what you said.

    If you feel anything I said is against the forum rules, please invite a moderator to the thread.
    Last edited by TGUEIROS; 06-12-2018, 11:41 AM.

  • #2
    Cross-posted in the image thread with the creation of this one, I'll probably delete it and post some images there instead.


    Originally posted by Synapse View Post
    You can complain all you want, my point is that this particular complaint about drawings is getting tiresome. Or, rather, the fact it keeps being brought up incessantly. At this point the impression I get is that people feel all but obligated to point it out, as if they can't just appreciate (or not appreciate) in silence. It's an annoying zeitgeist, preaching to no one.

    I genuinely don't want to be rude, but, uhh... I thought the point of the thread was to provide people with Exalted-appropriate images they can grab and plug into their own games?

    Well, my games generally feature sensibly-dressed people. A half-naked lady might see some use, at some point, if I'm going for a certain decadent vibe (a half-naked warrior lady, on the other hand, probably not, because holy shit the rules really hate it when a character tries to pull that off), but a/ I'm far more likely to be able to use someone with some goddamn clothes on, and b/ it's very easy to hit diminishing returns on images of half-naked ladies purely due to the supply-demand discrepancy.

    "But aluminiumtrioxid, the thread does not exist to provide you specifically with the images you would like to see!", I hear you cry out in protest.

    That is reasonable.

    As a community resource, the thread's usefulness depends on two criteria: the first is "how much do the thread's contents overlap with the actual needs of people who would use these images in their games?". Indeed, while I have my preferences, I can't prove that they are universal. However, there is a second issue we should take into account: "how difficult is it for somebody to obtain images of a certain thing by manually scouring Pinterest and other websites?". And I would argue that by this second criterion, images of half-naked ladies tend to do pretty badly. The internet is littered with images of half-naked ladies, even with ones that are drawn in a very technically proficient manner! Therefore it is our moral imperative to tell people there is nothing wrong with periodically reminding people that other kinds of images exist and the thread would be well served by having those in it.


    Evocations for the demonic tattoos gained from the Pact with Mara sorcerous initiation || Pyre-Kindler (Soulsteel and Red Jade Grimscythe, Artifact 3) || Tenebrous Descent (Stormcaller's Black Jade Reaver Daiklave cousin, Artifact 5)
    Advice for running the corebook shikari antagonists

    Comment


    • #3
      Double post?
      Anyway, i completely agree.

      There's even a practical value to allowing such expressions, after the moral necessity of letting the speaker express itself, in that an open statement can be criticized, whereas a secret statement cannot.
      Someone silenced also has the moral high ground to argue that she is being silenced, which gives credit to tje idea no matter how good or bad.

      So censorship not only is unacepptable, it's also dumb.


      Other than that, of course, house rules prevail: feel free to ban any topic from your house or business, it's yours after all.
      Oh, and none of this means saying something dumb will not meet rejection. Goodness knows how many people lost jobs or businesses to a dumb statement, and that's fine.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by aluminiumtrioxid View Post
        Cross-posted in the image thread with the creation of this one, I'll probably delete it and post some images there instead.





        I genuinely don't want to be rude, but, uhh... I thought the point of the thread was to provide people with Exalted-appropriate images they can grab and plug into their own games?

        Well, my games generally feature sensibly-dressed people. A half-naked lady might see some use, at some point, if I'm going for a certain decadent vibe (a half-naked warrior lady, on the other hand, probably not, because holy shit the rules really hate it when a character tries to pull that off), but a/ I'm far more likely to be able to use someone with some goddamn clothes on, and b/ it's very easy to hit diminishing returns on images of half-naked ladies purely due to the supply-demand discrepancy.

        "But aluminiumtrioxid, the thread does not exist to provide you specifically with the images you would like to see!", I hear you cry out in protest.

        That is reasonable.

        As a community resource, the thread's usefulness depends on two criteria: the first is "how much do the thread's contents overlap with the actual needs of people who would use these images in their games?". Indeed, while I have my preferences, I can't prove that they are universal. However, there is a second issue we should take into account: "how difficult is it for somebody to obtain images of a certain thing by manually scouring Pinterest and other websites?". And I would argue that by this second criterion, images of half-naked ladies tend to do pretty badly. The internet is littered with images of half-naked ladies, even with ones that are drawn in a very technically proficient manner! Therefore it is our moral imperative to tell people there is nothing wrong with periodically reminding people that other kinds of images exist and the thread would be well served by having those in it.
        By all means, don't take my words as a condemnation of the art that you want and like. If that's how it sounded, please have my apology.

        My preferences are far more aligned with yours here than you imagine. I like the current trend of imagery, and I, literally, have zero authority over your tastes and made no affectation of having any.

        I made a remark on how nowadays people insist in pointing out that half naked ladies are excessive and don't make sense. That's my one and only complaint.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Synapse View Post
          I made a remark on how nowadays people insist in pointing out that half naked ladies are excessive and don't make sense. That's my one and only complaint.

          Yeah, but the question we should ask ourselves is - does repeatedly asking that question serve a useful purpose?

          And I would argue it does! Images of sexualized women are everywhere. If you need one for your game, you don't need to specifically look in the thread for Exalted inspirational images. Hell, you don't even need to type in some humiliating search keyword Pinterest will no doubt silently judge you for, like "sexy warrior cat woman", because "sexy" is treated as the default. If there is no constant pushback, images of half-naked women will consume the thread, purely because the likelihood of any piece of art being both technically proficient and going against the cultural default is a lot smaller than the likelihood of them just being technically proficient.

          And we haven't even touched on the question of consumer appeal, ie. good art that depicts a half-naked lady is probably going to be liked and shared by a lot more people than good art that depicts something with comparatively niche appeal, like a Chinese bureaucrat. Now, what this means is that even if we assume that the people who use these forums are saints who are always mindful of the implications of the things they share, they are going to to find a lot more of the former than the latter (because it is liked and shared by a lot more people, and as a consequence, it will float to the top of search results), and them being people with a functional set of eyes, the thought will inevitably cross their minds "well yeah, I mean, this is a half-naked lady but holy shit it is also really good art, I'm sure that posting it just this one time is going to be fine". And then, before you even know it, the thread will once again be full of half-naked ladies even though everybody who participated did actively think through the implications of what they post. All it took was people thinking that good art deserves to be shared no matter the subject.

          (I know that this argument could be characterized as telling people that we have a moral imperative to bully those who like good art until they stop sharing it if we don't like the subject matter, but I'll have to ask you to read it a bit more charitably.)


          Evocations for the demonic tattoos gained from the Pact with Mara sorcerous initiation || Pyre-Kindler (Soulsteel and Red Jade Grimscythe, Artifact 3) || Tenebrous Descent (Stormcaller's Black Jade Reaver Daiklave cousin, Artifact 5)
          Advice for running the corebook shikari antagonists

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by aluminiumtrioxid View Post
            Cross-posted in the image thread with the creation of this one, I'll probably delete it and post some images there instead.





            I genuinely don't want to be rude, but, uhh... I thought the point of the thread was to provide people with Exalted-appropriate images they can grab and plug into their own games?

            Well, my games generally feature sensibly-dressed people.
            I agree with this. I've recently started running a Star Wars game, and the PCs are on Ryloth, the Twi'lek home world, where slavery is a big problem. The PCs rescued a bunch of slaves from Black Sun last session.
            I looked for some pictures to illustrate the session, and while google images did a fine job finding "Falleen gangster", "Cloakshape fighter", and "Black Sun thug", typing in "Twi'lek slaves" gave me a ton of pictures of Twi'lek girls wearing very little, which wasn't suitable. I don't really want the players thinking this game is some kind of prurient sex fantasy on my part.
            I've had similar issues previously with "Dark Eldar female warrior", "female tech-priest" and, for Exalted, "Egyptian woman fantasy art" and "Bast fantasy art" for a cat-totem Lunar character I was considering playing in our Egypt-expy-set game. I mean, it's ancient Egypt, I don't demand or want all the pictures of women to be wearing burkas, but I really could not take the ton of pictures of barely-dressed cat-girls posing provocatively seriously for the character I wanted to play.


            One could argue that there's a ton of art on the internet, and you could always use different art.
            But I think it was pretty reasonable, on that thread, to say "I like the art, I don't like how little clothes they're wearing." (It's not like they said the poster should be banned for showing art they didn't like! They just said they'd prefer something different.)

            If it's the occasional thing it's fine. Sometimes both women and men don't wear very much. Sometimes that's the art you want.
            It's just that, when looking for art for my games, the whole thing being filled with over-sexualised art of women makes it quite hard to navigate to the more regularly-dressed art I want.*

            *Plus, you know, when it's over common sexism, body confidence issues, etc, etc, but we all know that already.


            "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by aluminiumtrioxid View Post
              Yeah, but the question we should ask ourselves is - does repeatedly asking that question serve a useful purpose?
              I said nothing of purpose. I claimed it's tiresome and it's not adding anything new because, well, the established audience here already knows that. That's why just about every other post has that very comment and why I said it felt tiresome.

              All your concerns are very valid. None of them are what I criticized...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Synapse View Post
                I said nothing of purpose. I claimed it's tiresome and it's not adding anything new because, well, the established audience here already knows that. That's why just about every other post has that very comment and why I said it felt tiresome.

                All your concerns are very valid. None of them are what I criticized...

                So it appears the only thing we disagree on is whether the tiresomeness of seeing the critique repeated outweighs its usefulness?


                Evocations for the demonic tattoos gained from the Pact with Mara sorcerous initiation || Pyre-Kindler (Soulsteel and Red Jade Grimscythe, Artifact 3) || Tenebrous Descent (Stormcaller's Black Jade Reaver Daiklave cousin, Artifact 5)
                Advice for running the corebook shikari antagonists

                Comment


                • #9
                  This thread isn't related to Exalted. Shouldn't it go into the Off-Topic forum?

                  Edit: Oops, noticed that it was.


                  Ekorren's Homebrew Hub - (No longer updated)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Why are there two threads for this?

                    ​You know, on a personal note, I'll also comment on how it's worth being critical of art depicting women in extremely skimpy clothes in fantasy just because it's a bit lazy.

                    ​Not just in the sense of lacking variation and going to a very basic template, but on the most basic sense of "doing less work"; one has all the potential for unmoored creativity that fantasy permits, and instead opts to draw as little cloth as possible. A thin strip around the chest, a skirt with a slit in it and boots, and then done.

                    ​Bringing up Jen before was interesting, considering that on most of the occasions in which he draws women, he puts them in elaborately layered and patterned and folded clothing.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by aluminiumtrioxid View Post


                      So it appears the only thing we disagree on is whether the tiresomeness of seeing the critique repeated outweighs its usefulness?
                      Because, in that particular context, the usefulness approaches zero due to the target audience.

                      tl;dr: Yes

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think it's worth reiterating that the comment that started this tangent had somebody saying that the art was amazing. If anything, the comment of not being a fan of scantily clad women read as a piece of context to the effect of it being something that looked so good that it got past a usual objection.

                        ​Unless one was to think that my comment on the oversimplification of "response to not liking something is as simple as not watching it" was the insidious call for universal censorship?


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          All right then.



                          I feel as though this is taking my point kind of literally, rather than considering the substance of what I was saying.

                          ​Sure, those things are valid to the question of how The Birth of a Nation is watched now, close to a hundred years after its cinematic release, at a point in time when even bigots probably need to go very far out of their way to watch it, and perhaps find more contemporary material if they wish to do so.

                          ​The point I was making was based on a consideration of how to perceive and criticise it as though it was new, in which the statement "if you don't like it, don't watch it" is kind of inadequate when it's something that was both contributing to a popular narrative that marginalized and oppressed a large section of the American population, and was so empowering to bigots that it sparked the revival of an actual terrorist organisation.

                          ​To be sure, it's not a point that is never valid. I personally don't care much for Doctor Who, haven't watched it in years, and would, as of now, be trying to not go out of my way to speak critically of it in a conversation that had nothing to do with it, or at least was not soliciting people's opinions on the subject. Doctor Who is a product in which my dislike for it and everything that stems from therein is purely a matter of personal taste, and thus it's a lot easier on myself and anybody that I might talk to if I simply devote no attention to it at all, rather than exist in a perverse state of actively and vocally disliking it.

                          ​On the other hand, I would be fairly critical of a show such as, say, Entourage, with its portrayal of that kind of Hollywood bro culture, particularly as it pertains to comparatively recent revelations about Hollywood and its attitude towards women. Where I would propose that the Harvey Weinsteins of the world readily disappeared into the midst of that society and its general background noise of low-level misogyny, such that I would have harsh words against a show that seemed to celebrate it.

                          ​Something that I think has significance to our own particular subculture.

                          ​I like fantasy fiction. I like women. I would like fantasy fiction to continue making improvements with regards to representations of women, and making them feel as though they're a welcome and valued part of the subculture.

                          ​So I think that it's fair to continue being critical of a disproportionate amount of fantasy fiction that continues to represent women in ways that have issues.
                          I think we're living on a very convuloted time for activism in general. Everyone has something to say and a reason why they feel someone else should shut up.

                          My wife hates sexy lady drawings, and constantly says real women don't dress like that. She is categorical in calling out "sluts and hoes" for the way they dress or dance. Even though when she's had a few drinks she'll do just that. But most of the time, you got yourself a good ol conservative gal. I've been trying to mellow her out a bit on that, and thankfully it has been working, but you can still feel the condescension when she talks about women with litlle clothes on the streets, specially if they're around me.

                          My cousin is a pin-up model and draws pin-up girls in fantasy, sci-fi, western, whatever. She says shes a cock teaser, loves and is proud of it. She will tell you to eat a dick if you criticize her drawings for lack of coverage.

                          Who is advocating for freedom for women here? And with who's view on the matter do you align with?

                          Why is nudity the new taboo? Why is sex? Prostitution?

                          If art depiction of women is a true concern of yours, try enacting positive change. Who are the artists drawing adequately? Contact them and have them submit work for Onyx Path. Contact Onyx Path art directors and tell them about these artists. Do something besides complaining!

                          And while you're at it, don't forget to mention us guys too. I don't know about you, but I have been bombarded with unrealistic expectations of how I should look and dress my whole life.

                          Who here has the physiques presented in men's art? Who has those manes of hair? Those bulges? Everyone is a armani decked body builder with a horse's mane and cock but me?

                          I will wait to see a balding, soft-belly, skinny armed, weak chinned, pencil dicked hero. If you have one please feel free to post.

                          How tiring would it be if everytime we see a drawing of an Adonis, Hercules or Apollo, some complained like that? How relevant the complaint would be?


                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          What kinds of films are those?

                          ​Like, I've seen bits and pieces of The Birth of a Nation, and I've seen the entirety of 12 Years a Slave, and both films feature southern American white people doing very unpleasant things to black people, and yet the films are not equivalent in their framing and priorities and what they intend the audience to take away from it.

                          ​So are you talking about films that seem to be trying to empower the actual people who are assaulting children? Or what, what's going on, what is the context?
                          As far as I can tell they are shock inducers. They do it because they can and they want to push the boundaries of that freedom. Honestly I see no other purpose in them. But I'm not a film academic or involved in the industry. To me they serve no purpose at all.

                          They really push some crazy sexual murder nightmarish shit that I find hard to even describe.

                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          ​Honestly, I think this is a bit of a false flag. I don't believe that anybody in the last couple of pages of that thread was saying anything to the effect of somebody not having a right to produce something, or calling for some kind of boycott, or any of the other usual arguments. Hell, as I recall, the person actually said that they liked the art style, and was just critical of it for still having that standard of depicting women.

                          ​Nobody has talked about total censorship until right here. It's a false dichotomy, and a scare tactic.
                          Well the comment was sort of "oh I'm tired of naked lady drawings, its kinda sexist, but they draw so great that they can draw naked ladies", implying that if it was a shitty artist there would be an issue, but since the artist is so good they get a pass.

                          So people are kind of suggesting that people should refrain from producing art they want, unless it pleases said people.

                          It is a shitty blackhole where all efforts at curbing speech end up being drawn to. All rules apply, unless I think they should not apply. The problem is, most likely someone you don't like will establish the rules, and then you're screwed.

                          I say stop complaining about who is producing art and how they produce.

                          Start promoting art you like. Or produce art you like yourself.

                          Try to win us over with mind boggling art. Don't nag us to death.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by aluminiumtrioxid View Post


                            Yeah, but the question we should ask ourselves is - does repeatedly asking that question serve a useful purpose?

                            And I would argue it does! Images of sexualized women are everywhere. If you need one for your game, you don't need to specifically look in the thread for Exalted inspirational images. Hell, you don't even need to type in some humiliating search keyword Pinterest will no doubt silently judge you for, like "sexy warrior cat woman", because "sexy" is treated as the default. If there is no constant pushback, images of half-naked women will consume the thread, purely because the likelihood of any piece of art being both technically proficient and going against the cultural default is a lot smaller than the likelihood of them just being technically proficient.

                            And we haven't even touched on the question of consumer appeal, ie. good art that depicts a half-naked lady is probably going to be liked and shared by a lot more people than good art that depicts something with comparatively niche appeal, like a Chinese bureaucrat. Now, what this means is that even if we assume that the people who use these forums are saints who are always mindful of the implications of the things they share, they are going to to find a lot more of the former than the latter (because it is liked and shared by a lot more people, and as a consequence, it will float to the top of search results), and them being people with a functional set of eyes, the thought will inevitably cross their minds "well yeah, I mean, this is a half-naked lady but holy shit it is also really good art, I'm sure that posting it just this one time is going to be fine". And then, before you even know it, the thread will once again be full of half-naked ladies even though everybody who participated did actively think through the implications of what they post. All it took was people thinking that good art deserves to be shared no matter the subject.

                            (I know that this argument could be characterized as telling people that we have a moral imperative to bully those who like good art until they stop sharing it if we don't like the subject matter, but I'll have to ask you to read it a bit more charitably.)
                            Images of sexualized women are everywhere?!

                            Sexualized pictures of humans are everywhere!

                            If I may, do you identify as male? If so, do you consider yourself an average male? If so, when was the last time you felt represented in superhero art?

                            Who is the mainstream superhero who is not the picture perfect sex god? Who is the mainstream superhero without a six-pack, tree trunk legs, a mountanous back, jaw dropping arms and an italian salami in his pants? Who is this guy?

                            Sex sells. Its old. Its vulgar. But it is an equal opportunity frustrator.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                              I think it's worth reiterating that the comment that started this tangent had somebody saying that the art was amazing. If anything, the comment of not being a fan of scantily clad women read as a piece of context to the effect of it being something that looked so good that it got past a usual objection.

                              ​Unless one was to think that my comment on the oversimplification of "response to not liking something is as simple as not watching it" was the insidious call for universal censorship?
                              Are you saying those are inadequate images for "Exalted Inspiration"? The thread asks for there to be no criticism of peoples taste in art. But people constantly criticize when it is art depicting women with little clothes.

                              In that context my response was very simple.

                              In that thread, please, if you don't like something, and that something is not against the terms of use, please don't look at it, don't take it as inspiration for your Exalted, and shut up about it!

                              Its the polite thing to do!

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X