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  • Nicolas Milioni
    started a topic I Need to Confess Something.

    I Need to Confess Something.

    So. A while ago,i made an confession in here,because i felt this forum is one of the less judgemental places i've ever met and everyone is nice,i was right. So i have a another confession to make,and i hope you guys can help me understand myself better. This one is much less serious than the previous one,so here it goes.
    i'm unhappy the doctor is a woman now. I feel ashamed even saying that,but i can't really lie to myself,i just can't. I just lost all interest in seeing the new season of the show because of that. And i can't figure out why? why does the doctor being a woman bothers me? Could it be that i am a sexist? or at least have a sexist side on my personality. Thing is,i want to like Jodie Foster as the doctor,swear i do. But there is some kind of switch in my head that makes me unnable to accept her. You see,the doctor was THE character that was specila to me,i loved him for years. Unlike many other fans,i loved all seasons of the new series doctor who,loved all doctors,loved both steven moffatand russel t davies equally. I never thought any of them was a sexist,but i'm facing my own feelings right now,and i just can't help wondering if i am in fact,a sexist. Because the doctor being a woman does bother,i don't know what's wrong it me but i think there is something. I swear i don't want to be a sexist,but i can't help how i feel
    Can anyone help?

  • Charlaquin
    replied
    Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
    That said, Dr Who is a series that has been around for over half a century and has probably had hundreds of different writers and directors in that time period. There have hundreds of minor retcons, ass-pulls and stories saved by deus ex machina, and dozens of bigger ones. It's the sort of show where you need to just turn off your brain and accept whatever they throw at you because thinking too hard about it is just going to get you frustrated by the contradictions.
    Yeah, it’s a lot like super hero comics in that way. If retcons and continuity errors grind your gears, you either need to learn to let them go, or you’re going to have a bad time.

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  • AnubisXy
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    So whenever they decided to retcon that and make it so that a FELLOW TIME LORD couldn't tell that he was still alive...
    Well on this note in particular, way back during the 4th Doctor era in the episode "Deadly Assassin" the Master was on his final incarnation and used the Eye of Harmony to cheat and steal enough energy to get a new set of incarnations. And one of the plot points in that episode was that the Master faked his own death in such a way that neither the Doctor nor any of the other Time Lords realized he was still alive, even though they were examining The Master's body rather closely with all of the advanced technology available to them on Gallifrey.

    So in the later, newer series, The Master was already well outside the boundaries of typical Time Lord regeneration and had already managed to trick the Doctor and all of the Time Lords into thinking he was dead before, so it's not completely impossible that he could trick The Doctor again.

    That said, Dr Who is a series that has been around for over half a century and has probably had hundreds of different writers and directors in that time period. There are hundreds of minor retcons, ass-pulls and stories saved by deus ex machina, and dozens of bigger ones. It's the sort of show where you need to just turn off your brain and accept whatever they throw at you because thinking too hard about it is just going to get you frustrated by the contradictions.
    Last edited by AnubisXy; 07-16-2018, 02:10 PM.

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  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    Maybe hundreds of years ago, or in countries where they still lack modern medicine. But we've come a long way since then.
    Spain in 2018 and Poland and the USA in 2014 are hardly "countries where they still lack modern medicine."

    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    And the Time Lords even more so, as they are thousands of years more advanced than us.
    And people thousands of years more advanced than us are still going to occasionally make mistakes. That's kind of a big thing I've seen in the series.

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  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    You know, humans have failed to tell that fellow humans were still alive. Being the same species is not a guarantor of perfect diagnosis.

    Maybe hundreds of years ago, or in countries where they still lack modern medicine. But we've come a long way since then. And the Time Lords even more so, as they are thousands of years more advanced than us.

    Plus, his name is The Doctor, which he didn't just give himself because it sounded fancy. Time Lords pick their names for a reason, and The Doctor has been traveling all over the time space continuum because he wants to help people. He's encountered who knows how many races and species in that time and regards most, if not all life as sacred. I'm pretty sure he would be able to tell whether or not something was wrong about one of his own people.

    Especially since he's been obsessed with the guilt that came with getting them all killed.
    Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-16-2018, 06:28 AM.

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  • Theodrim
    replied
    Originally posted by marin View Post
    Basically, we have evidence he is willing to engage with such topics with consideration, willing to listen to others' advice on them. Will it carry over? We don't know, but we know that he has it in him..
    I'd prefer you be correct than not, but I'm not banking on it. For me, the burden of proof lies with Chibnall and his writers, and the show's producers, to prove they can and will do better.

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  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    So whenever they decided to retcon that and make it so that a FELLOW TIME LORD couldn't tell that he was still alive...
    You know, humans have failed to tell that fellow humans were still alive. Being the same species is not a guarantor of perfect diagnosis.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

    Have you not watched the show in the last decade or something? The Master just spend THREE SEASONS as a woman!


    If it's recently, then no, I have not. The last time I saw anything about The Master, they failed to regenerate and died in The Doctor's Arms.

    So whenever they decided to retcon that and make it so that a FELLOW TIME LORD couldn't tell that he was still alive...
    Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-15-2018, 06:31 PM.

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  • marin
    replied
    Originally posted by Theodrim View Post

    I had a longer response, but I can make it more succinct: from my perspective, the show's fake woke.

    I call it pandering because it's not good. The line between commentary and proselytism is razor-thin and highly subjective, but to me the show crossed that line and in doing so caters to a specific, vocal, subset of the audience who value proselytism over commentary. And indeed, that's attributable to Moffat's talents as a showrunner...but it's also attributable to the BBC executives to whom he answers, and the other writers of the show who failed to perform. Doctor Who isn't made by one person. The show, showrunners, producers, executives, and writers seem more interested in making a spectacle of how progressive it is, than actually being progressive.

    You're right, I'm not a part of that demographic, and indeed I'm very used to being the show's targeted demographic. But, and not for want of coming off passive-aggressive or outright so, that's not about what is or isn't between my legs, the color of my skin, how I self-identify or who I fuck. Why I feel excluded from the show's targeting, is because I feel the topic(s) addressed, and values expressed, are important and deserve more respect than has been shown by the showrunners of late.
    Thing is, I don't think Chibnall's pandering in that regard, because we have a recent example of his work where that could have happened and didn't - Broadchurch series 3, which dealt with a rape case, and for which Chibnall received advice on the scripts from the Shores and Dorset Rape Crisis. Being the showrunner-in-waiting at that point, if he'd muffed it, believe me, Who fandom would've been in an uproar, used it as another stick to beat him with, as it would've been seen as in keeping with his 'record' on Torchwood episodes Day One and Cyberwoman.

    Basically, we have evidence he is willing to engage with such topics with consideration, willing to listen to others' advice on them. Will it carry over? We don't know, but we know that he has it in him..

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    Maybe you're upset by the fact literally every other regeneration of the Doctor since the series began has been male, and the idea that Regeneration could alter somebody's gender has never been referenced?

    This isn't about being sexually biased, that's complete bullshit. This is about taking a well established series that the fans have loved for many years, and changing it up just to appeal to a wider demographic.

    I mean, the Doctor has said multiple times that when it comes to Regeneration, you never know what species you'll look like (I still believe that his final regeneration will be a ginger without legs. As a sort of inside joke to the fans), but he's never suggested that becoming the opposite sex was a possibility.
    Have you not watched the show in the last decade or something? The Master just spend THREE SEASONS as a woman!

    It’s not like the Doctor always being male was due to a creative decision that’s now being overriden. Sidney Newman, THE SHOW’S CREATOR, wanted to cast a woman in the 80s! It was the BBC that was too chicken shit to do it, because of real-world social hang ups.

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  • Charlaquin
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    Maybe you're upset by the fact literally every other regeneration of the Doctor since the series began has been male, and the idea that Regeneration could alter somebody's gender has never been referenced?
    Yes it has. Many times. When Eccelston’s Doctor regenerates, he tells Rose he could come back like anything. The example he gives is “I could have two heads” which is far more outlandish than having one vagina. Before that, The Master had a weird monster face in the original series; again, much further removed from his previous form than having a woman's face. In the Doctor’s Wife, Smith’s doctor referenced a timelord named The Corsair who had the same tatto in every regeneration; “just didn’t feel like himself without it. Or herself a couple of times. Ooh, she was a naughty girl!” The Master regenerated into Missy. The idea that time lords can change gender and/or sex when they regenerate is very well established.
    Last edited by Charlaquin; 07-15-2018, 04:28 PM.

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  • Theodrim
    replied
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
    Your quality comparisons below this, which I largely agree with, strike me less of an issue of "pandering" and more of an issue of "Moffett is not as talented a writer"*. His best episodes were under the editorial oversight of Davies for a reason.

    For me, "pandering" is often a red flag in an argument that I have a hard time taking seriously because it usually completely ignores the overwhelming pandering in the status-quo. For example: the only reason the Doctor didn't become a woman DECADES AGO was because of pandering to male viewers! I'm completely serious - Sydney Newman wanted a female Doctor back in the 80s, but BBC wouldn't do it.

    I know that's not what you're saying Theodrim, but that's why I don't think "pandering" as it's understood in online discourse today is an accurate description of your critique.
    I had a longer response, but I can make it more succinct: from my perspective, the show's fake woke.

    I call it pandering because it's not good. The line between commentary and proselytism is razor-thin and highly subjective, but to me the show crossed that line and in doing so caters to a specific, vocal, subset of the audience who value proselytism over commentary. And indeed, that's attributable to Moffat's talents as a showrunner...but it's also attributable to the BBC executives to whom he answers, and the other writers of the show who failed to perform. Doctor Who isn't made by one person. The show, showrunners, producers, executives, and writers seem more interested in making a spectacle of how progressive it is, than actually being progressive.

    You're right, I'm not a part of that demographic, and indeed I'm very used to being the show's targeted demographic. But, and not for want of coming off passive-aggressive or outright so, that's not about what is or isn't between my legs, the color of my skin, how I self-identify or who I fuck. Why I feel excluded from the show's targeting, is because I feel the topic(s) addressed, and values expressed, are important and deserve more respect than has been shown by the showrunners of late.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nicolas Milioni
    replied
    I think my feelings about the woman doctor might be related to my feelings about Steven Moffat. So,I bloody love him,not as much as I love other writers,but I still really like him. When I first saw people calling him a sexist I thought "ah,I don't agree but what the hell do I know?' Then I found the Steven Moffat appreciation blog. (Moffatapreciationlife.tumblr.com). This blog that is run by women,convinced me with solid argument and evidence,that the people calling Moffat a sexist are misguided. Maybe I'm mad,because I know for a fact the Doctor is a woman now because of Steven Moffat. He wrote the first male to female regeneration on screen. Missy was his idea,he said in public that he would approve a woman doctor. The doctor is a woman because of him,that's a damned fact. And people are still calling him a sexist,without even bothering to listen to the arguments telling them that just isn't true. Maybe I'm just mad people are not giving a writer i admire credit enough for this achievement?

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  • marin
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    Maybe you're upset by the fact literally every other regeneration of the Doctor since the series began has been male, and the idea that Regeneration could alter somebody's gender has never been referenced?

    This isn't about being sexually biased, that's complete bullshit. This is about taking a well established series that the fans have loved for many years, and changing it up just to appeal to a wider demographic.

    I mean, the Doctor has said multiple times that when it comes to Regeneration, you never know what species you'll look like (I still believe that his final regeneration will be a ginger without legs. As a sort of inside joke to the fans), but he's never suggested that becoming the opposite sex was a possibility.
    He never mentioned he could 'be renewed' before 1966, never mentioned he was an alien and a Time Lord before 1969, the original limit of thirteen lives wasn't established until 1976,that he could change species wasn't established until 1979 with Romana's regeneration, 16 years in...

    Then there's the rewrite of Dalek history in Genesis of the Daleks, the Time Lords' overhaul in Deadly Assassin....

    This is what Doctor Who does. It makes itself up as it goes along.

    (As to the history of gender-changing regenerations: in End of Time, Eleven thinks he's become a girl, he references the Corsair and their gender-changing regenerations in The Doctor's Wife, we have our first gender-changing regeneration in Series 8, and our first on-screen gender-changing regeneration in Series 9, so at this point, it's been part of the show's idea-space for over 8 years. The idea of a female Doctor has a longer history externally - Tom Baker jokingly suggested his successor might be a woman back when he left, and it's been floating around fandom ever since, including at least one well-received series of fan films, but it didn't get taken seriously until Moffat's era.)

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Theodrim View Post

    Honestly, pandering is exactly what I think is going on

    Your quality comparisons below this, which I largely agree with, strike me less of an issue of "pandering" and more of an issue of "Moffett is not as talented a writer"*. His best episodes were under the editorial oversight of Davies for a reason.

    For me, "pandering" is often a red flag in an argument that I have a hard time taking seriously because it usually completely ignores the overwhelming pandering in the status-quo. For example: the only reason the Doctor didn't become a woman DECADES AGO was because of pandering to male viewers! I'm completely serious - Sydney Newman wanted a female Doctor back in the 80s, but BBC wouldn't do it.

    I know that's not what you're saying Theodrim, but that's why I don't think "pandering" as it's understood in online discourse today is an accurate description of your critique.

    I'm not saying there aren't wishy washy hamfisted attempts at representation that fall flat - but the problem there is bad writing, not "pandering". Because all mass media is pandering. It's all marketing a product. The complaints of "pandering" most often come up with someone isn't the demo being specifically targeted at the moment (especially if they are very very very used to being the primary target of said marketing).


    *One of most succinct analysis I've read referred to the show under Davies as having been a very deep show pretending to be silly; and under Moffett it's a very silly show pretending to be deep.
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 07-15-2018, 03:09 AM.

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