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  • Just So We're Clear...

    I am officially done discussing real-life political issues of any kind on this forum, It's too much of a hot button topic and it always leads to bad places for everyone involved. I got in a bit of a spat in another thread over some IRL frustrations of mine and it got me reflecting on some things.

    I'm not just "taking a break" from political discussion like in the past, I am outright quitting completely.

    For any mods viewing this, this is not meant to be an attack on anyone in this forum or any group. This is simply a statement that I will be ceasing and desisting on any problematic behavior or discussions on my part before anything gets out of hand. Think of it as self-moderation on my part.

    Most of you know what my political stances are, but for those who don't or may be confused, let me make the following statements for what will be the final and definitive time...

    1. I support the right to free speech and free expression, and I oppose censorship and moral authoritarianism of any kind

    2. While I am opposed to the more extreme aspects of the Far Left (such as communism), I hate the Far Right even more

    3. I am not, nor have I ever been or will ever be, "Alt-Right" or any other type of violent authoritarian

    4. I oppose murder and political violence of any kind

    5. I am a center-leftist, economically liberal and socially libertarian. You do you and I'll do me.

    6. I don't ever want to discuss politics or bring it up on this forum ever again. I have enough headache-inducing political debate in my real life as is. I apologize for all the times I brought up politics in the first place.

    7. If you want to discuss politics among yourselves, feel free to do so. Just leave me out of it.

    8. I honestly and sincerely apologize to all those I may have upset with my complaints and arguments. It will not happen again.

    9. Do NOT ask me about my stances again as I have already laid them out in this thread, I don't want to repeat myself and everyone else on this forum doesn't want me to either, and understandably so.

    10. Yes, I have made similar threads in the past about wanting to take a break or to cool off, but those were meant to be temporary. This is permanent change. I don't intend to leave this forum, I just intend to be more civil and avoid bringing up certain topics on it.



    Look, I am feeling very upset right now and I just want to do better and make up for all the years of frustration I have caused. So for the sake of the sanity of everyone involved, I am withdrawing from any and all socio-political discussion and instead I will talk about gaming, media, writing fiction, and things that bring me joy in my life instead of things that cause frustration, depression, and anger in my life.
    Last edited by Camilla; 12-18-2018, 04:47 PM.

  • #2
    Haven’t you done exactly this before?


    Remi. she/her. game designer.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
      Haven’t you done exactly this before?

      Not exactly.

      Yes, while I have said I would take a temporary break from the forums or from discussions in the past, but never a permanent cease and desist to all political discussion.

      I even stated as such in the thread's opening post. This is not "taking a break" to cool off, this is the start of serious and drastic change, I don't need to cool down, I need to grow up and so I am taking the initiative and doing just that.
      Last edited by Camilla; 12-18-2018, 04:51 PM.

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      • #4
        I have no idea who you hang out with Camilla but it sounds like you should find someone else.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by nofather View Post
          I have no idea who you hang out with Camilla but it sounds like you should find someone else.

          I know I am not wanted here, which is why I am trying to better myself after years of being a complete fuck-up.

          But as for my real-life frustrations, it's mostly my brother whom I live with. He's extremely political to the point of activism and it has caused some issues recently which led to me blowing up in the other thread, and I feel bad about that.

          I fucking hate myself.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Camilla View Post
            I know I am not wanted here, which is why I am trying to better myself after years of being a complete fuck-up.
            That's a bit much, dude. Most people here probably don't even know you, and the others are probably more surprised that you think this warrants a thread. Or doubtful that it means anything. As pointed out by both of you, you have said these things before about 'bowing out' or whatever, then just keep posting about it.

            But as for my real-life frustrations, it's mostly my brother whom I live with. He's extremely political to the point of activism and it has caused some issues recently which led to me blowing up in the other thread, and I feel bad about that.

            I fucking hate myself.
            You shouldn't hate yourself but you should definitely stop using the forum as a place to vent about problems from elsewhere. If there's a game you like just talk about that. There's even a storyteller vault so you can spend time making homebrew stuff for it.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by nofather View Post

              That's a bit much, dude. Most people here probably don't even know you, and the others are probably more surprised that you think this warrants a thread. Or doubtful that it means anything. As pointed out by both of you, you have said these things before about 'bowing out' or whatever, then just keep posting about it.



              You shouldn't hate yourself but you should definitely stop using the forum as a place to vent about problems from elsewhere. If there's a game you like just talk about that. There's even a storyteller vault so you can spend time making homebrew stuff for it.


              Alright, I will stop using this forum like it's my own asylum and I will stick to the game threads from now on.

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              • #8
                The off-topic threads have their reasons too, but they're mostly dead beyond the gaming, love, and hate topics.

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                • #9
                  Or to be even more blunt:

                  Stop apologizing for it and just do it.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                    Or to be even more blunt:

                    Stop apologizing for it and just do it.
                    Bingo. You don’t need to announce to the world how you’re changing, or ramble about how you hate yourself. Just actually change your behavior and get on with it.


                    Remi. she/her. game designer.

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                    • #11
                      I'm also guilty of sharing stuff that does not really belong around here, so I can't criticize that.

                      But I think the "issue" here is less about your personal beliefs and more about how you express them. People have a high degree of tolerance for political differences around here (yes, they do: only toxic crap gets called out. If that happens more lately, it's a sign of times) and I'd say nobody aims to make you change your mind, but when you share some frankly shaky opinions only to admit other people have a point once they highlight the flaws in those, and this happens over and over again, it's bound to eventually wear out patience.

                      Like, we disagree on a LOT of things and I can say to have plenty of issues with what you say, but the one thing that always made me avoid any sort of dialogue with you is that I never thought it would lead anywhere aside from a pointless conflict.

                      Making a whole thread about it is a bit too much, but what makes it awkward is that all old-timers can confirm we've been through this before.

                      If you mean it, do it. No big deal if you don't, but you can't expect people to care much for a thread like this.

                      Really though, life's already tough. We all make mistakes from time to time, but if this forum is a social circle you need (hey, I get you, trust me) at this point you do know what to do in order to coexist peacefully.

                      I can assure you nobody around here hates you, so things are not that bad.
                      Last edited by Cinder; 12-19-2018, 05:10 AM.


                      Cinder's Comprehensive Collection of Creations - Homebrew Hub

                      I write about Beast: The Primordial a lot

                      This is what I'm working on

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                      • #12
                        I'm afraid that I must speak, because it's been something that I've been seeing for a while.

                        I see that the word "authoritarianism" is being used here, but in this context and from the history I've absorbed, I find it to be used as a term for people being in opposition to hateful and harmful speech.

                        But the thing is that actual authoritarianism, the kind that actually finds itself in the seat of power, employs such speech to turn the masses against scapegoats and the marginalized, as an instrument in exercising and maintaining its power.

                        To deny that language, to rebuke its use and seek to rob it of its power, strikes me as often one of the key ways that the targets of authoritarianism fight back against it.

                        I find the position of being opposed to authoritarianism, while also being opposed to people seeking to rebuke its tools to be ideologically incoherent.

                        Freedom of speech is a fine, historically important and valuable principle, that I find to have often been co-opted by wicked people in an age where they don't have so much recourse to employ murder to repress people who dissent, who criticise, or who simply live their lives in a manner that those people find offensive (by which I mean just being who they are; opposing an openly gay couple is not morally equivalent to opposing people who participate in white supremacy rallies). I find freedom of speech to be a principle that needs to evolve to function in the modern context.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          I'm afraid that I must speak, because it's been something that I've been seeing for a while.

                          I see that the word "authoritarianism" is being used here, but in this context and from the history I've absorbed, I find it to be used as a term for people being in opposition to hateful and harmful speech.

                          But the thing is that actual authoritarianism, the kind that actually finds itself in the seat of power, employs such speech to turn the masses against scapegoats and the marginalized, as an instrument in exercising and maintaining its power.

                          To deny that language, to rebuke its use and seek to rob it of its power, strikes me as often one of the key ways that the targets of authoritarianism fight back against it.

                          I find the position of being opposed to authoritarianism, while also being opposed to people seeking to rebuke its tools to be ideologically incoherent.

                          Freedom of speech is a fine, historically important and valuable principle, that I find to have often been co-opted by wicked people in an age where they don't have so much recourse to employ murder to repress people who dissent, who criticise, or who simply live their lives in a manner that those people find offensive (by which I mean just being who they are; opposing an openly gay couple is not morally equivalent to opposing people who participate in white supremacy rallies). I find freedom of speech to be a principle that needs to evolve to function in the modern context.


                          I am going to have to respectfully disagree for a couple of reasons.

                          One, authoritarians love laws that restrict free speech. It gives them a great recruitment tool, "Come hear X! the person Y doesn't want you to hear!" and once in power just a few tweeks and suddenly its illegal to criticize the government.

                          Two, the more you restrict something the more hidden it becomes. To quote Game of Thrones "when you cut out a man's tongue, you don't prove to the world you are right, you just prove that you fear what he has to say. The best disinfectant is sunlight, its better for hateful people to be known so that they can avoided or criticized or publicly proven to be the assholes that they are.

                          One last thing, before you wish for a law to be passed imagine your worst enemy being able to use it against you.

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                          • #14
                            All I am going to say is OP you have a tendency to talk out both sides of your mouth and leave it at that.


                            “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Grimmi05 View Post
                              One, authoritarians love laws that restrict free speech. It gives them a great recruitment tool, "Come hear X! the person Y doesn't want you to hear!" and once in power just a few tweeks and suddenly its illegal to criticize the government.
                              On the one hand, there's the question of what the comparative value is of the supposed taboo allure that evil people get when they're driven underground against the substantive harm that is caused by their ugly language being part of the open discourse. Personally, I don't need to know of many people who'll be actually harmed by exposure to slurs and hateful rhetoric to think that it's a better world if the kind of people who are really determined to find those things, or so bankrupt in morals or personality that they'll pursue it just because it's taboo, don't have to go digging in the mire for it.

                              Originally posted by Grimmi05
                              Two, the more you restrict something the more hidden it becomes. To quote Game of Thrones "when you cut out a man's tongue, you don't prove to the world you are right, you just prove that you fear what he has to say. The best disinfectant is sunlight, its better for hateful people to be known so that they can avoided or criticized or publicly proven to be the assholes that they are.
                              See, this is what I'm talking about with the incoherence. Right here, you're talking about how it's better for these things to be exposed, so that they can be criticized.

                              But when they're criticized, you get a lot of types who call that censorship and infringement of free speech. Those are the ones in particular that I was addressing.

                              For sunlight to be a disinfectant, the thing has to at some point be disinfected. Like, I presume that's a metaphor intended to mean that ultimately we don't have Nazis anymore? I'm addressing the mindset that would respond to the desire to criticise Nazism into non-existence as though that's a terrible infringement of the inherent right of the Nazi "opinion" to exist.

                              Sunlight might be a good disinfectant, but you get people who don't identify with these positions clamouring to provide them with umbrellas.

                              Originally posted by Grimmi05
                              One last thing, before you wish for a law to be passed imagine your worst enemy being able to use it against you.
                              Setting aside the fact that most of these kinds of discussions don't actually involve people calling for laws against things such as tone-deaf portrayals of homophobia in the first place, and that it's a rather extreme take on my statement of "modernity might require our concept of free speech to adapt", I find that my life would not change appreciably if they were outlawed (except insofar as I would have fewer frustrating discussions).

                              Keeping in mind that a lot of actual laws tend to be rather specific, what form would this terrifying spectre of a law against hateful language and rhetoric that can somehow become harmful to me in future even take? Again, I'm rejecting the premise that being critical of positions that call for the extermination of groups based on race or sexuality, and repressions based on gender, are morally or functionally equivalent to people making those hateful calls, or any kind of criticism of authority whatsoever. If there are two timelines, one in which it's illegal to be a Nazi, the other in which it's illegal to call out a government on any kind of excess or failing whatsoever, one of these things is preferable to the other, and they're both probably quite different structurally.


                              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                              https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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