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  • Camilla
    started a topic Just So We're Clear...

    Just So We're Clear...

    I am officially done discussing real-life political issues of any kind on this forum, It's too much of a hot button topic and it always leads to bad places for everyone involved. I got in a bit of a spat in another thread over some IRL frustrations of mine and it got me reflecting on some things.

    I'm not just "taking a break" from political discussion like in the past, I am outright quitting completely.

    For any mods viewing this, this is not meant to be an attack on anyone in this forum or any group. This is simply a statement that I will be ceasing and desisting on any problematic behavior or discussions on my part before anything gets out of hand. Think of it as self-moderation on my part.

    Most of you know what my political stances are, but for those who don't or may be confused, let me make the following statements for what will be the final and definitive time...

    1. I support the right to free speech and free expression, and I oppose censorship and moral authoritarianism of any kind

    2. While I am opposed to the more extreme aspects of the Far Left (such as communism), I hate the Far Right even more

    3. I am not, nor have I ever been or will ever be, "Alt-Right" or any other type of violent authoritarian

    4. I oppose murder and political violence of any kind

    5. I am a center-leftist, economically liberal and socially libertarian. You do you and I'll do me.

    6. I don't ever want to discuss politics or bring it up on this forum ever again. I have enough headache-inducing political debate in my real life as is. I apologize for all the times I brought up politics in the first place.

    7. If you want to discuss politics among yourselves, feel free to do so. Just leave me out of it.

    8. I honestly and sincerely apologize to all those I may have upset with my complaints and arguments. It will not happen again.

    9. Do NOT ask me about my stances again as I have already laid them out in this thread, I don't want to repeat myself and everyone else on this forum doesn't want me to either, and understandably so.

    10. Yes, I have made similar threads in the past about wanting to take a break or to cool off, but those were meant to be temporary. This is permanent change. I don't intend to leave this forum, I just intend to be more civil and avoid bringing up certain topics on it.



    Look, I am feeling very upset right now and I just want to do better and make up for all the years of frustration I have caused. So for the sake of the sanity of everyone involved, I am withdrawing from any and all socio-political discussion and instead I will talk about gaming, media, writing fiction, and things that bring me joy in my life instead of things that cause frustration, depression, and anger in my life.
    Last edited by Camilla; 12-18-2018, 04:47 PM.

  • Charlaquin
    replied
    Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
    Surely this thread has serves its purpose?
    Originally posted by Camilla View Post
    Yeah, I'm inclined to agree on this one.

    I regret even making this damn thread in the first place.
    Yes, I’d say it has. Locking it now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Camilla
    replied
    Originally posted by atamajakki View Post

    Surely this thread has serves its purpose?

    Yeah, I'm inclined to agree on this one.

    I regret even making this damn thread in the first place.

    Leave a comment:


  • atamajakki
    replied
    Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
    For the record, folks, ArcaneArts has been banned for a week for that post. That was way over the line.
    Surely this thread has serves its purpose?

    Leave a comment:


  • Charlaquin
    replied
    For the record, folks, ArcaneArts has been banned for a week for that post. That was way over the line.

    Leave a comment:


  • Camilla
    replied
    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    Going back to the original post, Cam-

    ...You know, I generally make a point of trying to call people by the name they prefer, but I actually need to make a point here, so-

    Paulie, you are in a hell of your own making and complaining that it's hot. More over, you have been making it for eight years.

    What the fuck did you think was gonna happen here? What the fuck did you think the narrative was? When, exactly, did you think things were going to switch over to the story in your head?

    I don't even have a thread of understanding why you're even here anymore. I cannot recall a single time you have contributed anything to conversation that wasn't you bitching about how your don't like how these games and the conversations around them are too hard for you to deal with and how you just want schlocky, edgy fun. You have either been silent or just making things more not-fun for yourself and everyone who bothers acknowledging you.

    As is, the old crowd is sick of your cowardice and narcissism, and the new crowd is gonna pick it up real quick. And none of that is anyone else's fault-you're the idjit going into threads you don't want to be in, you're the idjit who makes an ass of himself in front of everyone, and you're the idjit that gets offended when we call out what a god damned child you're being.

    I don't like your politics, but your politics are not the problem(they just suck). The problem is this non-avoidance bellowing and demanding you do all the damn time, and it's nothing more than a adult screaming that we should all be kids because he doesn't like growing up. At this point, if you're not gonna grow up, I'd much rather you just leave. I'm sure a lot of people feel the same.

    If yer gonna leave, shut up and do it.
    If yer gonna "try and improve", shut up and do it.

    Whatever it is you're gonna do, just fucking shut up and do it, cause at this point, your noise is rattling my head.

    I'm not going to leave, so you can give up on that pipe dream.

    In fact, I have something good, positive, and constructive planned. Something that even you might be pleasantly surprised by....

    Also, do you have to keep dredging up old forum drama?
    Last edited by Camilla; 12-24-2018, 02:54 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Going back to the original post, Cam-

    ...You know, I generally make a point of trying to call people by the name they prefer, but I actually need to make a point here, so-

    Paulie, you are in a hell of your own making and complaining that it's hot. More over, you have been making it for eight years.

    What the fuck did you think was gonna happen here? What the fuck did you think the narrative was? When, exactly, did you think things were going to switch over to the story in your head?

    I don't even have a thread of understanding why you're even here anymore. I cannot recall a single time you have contributed anything to conversation that wasn't you bitching about how your don't like how these games and the conversations around them are too hard for you to deal with and how you just want schlocky, edgy fun. You have either been silent or just making things more not-fun for yourself and everyone who bothers acknowledging you.

    As is, the old crowd is sick of your cowardice and narcissism, and the new crowd is gonna pick it up real quick. And none of that is anyone else's fault-you're the idjit going into threads you don't want to be in, you're the idjit who makes an ass of himself in front of everyone, and you're the idjit that gets offended when we call out what a god damned child you're being.

    I don't like your politics, but your politics are not the problem(they just suck). The problem is this non-avoidance bellowing and demanding you do all the damn time, and it's nothing more than a adult screaming that we should all be kids because he doesn't like growing up. At this point, if you're not gonna grow up, I'd much rather you just leave. I'm sure a lot of people feel the same.

    If yer gonna leave, shut up and do it.
    If yer gonna "try and improve", shut up and do it.

    Whatever it is you're gonna do, just fucking shut up and do it, cause at this point, your noise is rattling my head.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
    The problem is that the enforcement of laws in the country is not carried out evenly and impartially
    And?

    Should we overturn all laws against murder until we fix this problem? I mean, it's true about homicide enforcement. So should laws punishing homicide be removed until criminal justice reforms are executed? If not.... why should new laws be stayed just because there's a potential for the same abuse? And can you provide any evidence that hate crime statues in the US fall into this issue? Are hate crime laws currently being used to target minorities excessively? Because hate crime statutes are generally aggravating factors that require a law to be broken in the first place. Is there any evidence that hate crime laws are being used to increase the penalties on black men that kill white victims? If not... I don't see the validity in your position.

    There is zero doubt in my mind that if you made hate speech illegal,...
    Hence my suggestion for an anti-hate speech law within US legal confines is to expand hate crimes to cover things like harassment. You have to actually be guilty of both harassment and provable hate base motivations. You can't arrest someone for aggravating factors, only the base crime.

    This is the kind of law that might look great on the surface, "Yeah, we'll be able to put people in prison for saying harassing or members of minority groups," but it's much more likely that minorities will be disproportionately targeted by the enforcement of that law, in the same way that they are disproportionately targeted by the enforcement of so many laws that currently exist.
    Harassment is already a criminal offense in many jurisdictions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Or even the history of protecting the freedom of speech in those countries before whatever curtailing being referencing occurred? Freedom of speech wasn't exactly some grand popular right enjoyed by all in... any of those countries (or at least not for a significant amount of time) before despots took them over. Cuba is the only one on that list that isn't a country where either a monarchy was overthrown by despotic regimes, or a monarchy was overthrow by a popular revolt that was then hijacked by a despotic regime.... because Cuba was a colonial pawn instead, where the quasi-post-colonial independence revolution based non-monarchy was then overthrown by a despotic regime.

    Seems like "who overthrew the last monarch" mattered a lot more than freedom of speech issues (note: monarchies are not exactly known for great freedom of speech protections)... oh and all of those despots except Cuba took power before freedom of speech was recognized as a human right in international law... since that happened after WWII; and Cuba was only late to the party by a few years.

    I could make a very solid case that in a few of those countries that idealistic and rapid expansion of public rights (China, Russia, Germany, Italy, and Cuba) with a general populous not used to such freedoms made things worse because it left them that much more easily to be taken over by despots that were ready to take advantage of those new freedoms and didn't have traditions, norms, or institutional inertia to curtail them.

    Leave a comment:


  • AnubisXy
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Because there's a simple thing to build into these laws: there be actual persecution based on hate involved. Hate crimes aren't based in what groups you belong to (though membership can be used as evidence), but what you actually do and why.
    The problem is that the enforcement of laws in the country is not carried out evenly and impartially. Minority groups are far more likely to be arrested, sentenced and put in prison for the same crime that a white person gets. That's why Black Lives Matter exists in the first place. There is zero doubt in my mind that if you made hate speech illegal, law enforcement would disproportionately target minorities in the same way that minorities are disproportionately targeted by law enforcement for pretty much every other crime.

    At the end of the day, a white person saying, "Kill blacks" would be more likely to get a reduced sentence and a slap on the wrist whereas an African-American saying, "Kill whites" would end up with a much higher sentence. So long as justice in America is not carried out equally, I'm against making any kind of speech illegal, especially when there's no doubt in my mind that law enforcement will use those laws as a new way to oppress minority groups.

    I'm reminded of the three-strikes and increased sentencing laws that were rolled out under Clinton. Many African-American leaders supported those laws because they believed it would help clean up their local neighborhoods. But they didn't count on African-Americans being targeted by those laws more frequently than whites, and ending up with many of their communities gutted when members were given long or even life sentences because the way law enforcement would target their communities more often in the first place.

    This is the kind of law that might look great on the surface, "Yeah, we'll be able to put people in prison for saying harassing or members of minority groups," but it's much more likely that minorities will be disproportionately targeted by the enforcement of that law, in the same way that they are disproportionately targeted by the enforcement of so many laws that currently exist.
    Last edited by AnubisXy; 12-23-2018, 05:36 PM.

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  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by Grimmi05 View Post

    There is also many countries that have curtailed free speech and then proceeded to fall into despotism and/or genocide. China, Cambodia, Russia, Germany during the third reich(what Anubis is describing is pretty much what happened with the raise of the third reich), Italy, Cuba, and other such places.
    There's two questions that need to be answered there:

    1) Were the kinds of speech that they were opposed to anything like attacks on traditionally persecuted groups?

    2) Do you freaking know what the actual ideologies of those groups were, and the histories of their rise to power?!

    Leave a comment:


  • Grimmi05
    replied
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    Heavy Arms' post seems to be going remarkably unremarked upon here.
    I think Heavy arms has a slight point but its still something you have to be very careful about. Germany has the strictest speech laws in the western world and its illegal to insult somebody or heads of foreign states, England seems to think its better for its law enforcement to go after twitter trolls then deal with the rampant sex abuse scandals that have plagued the country.

    There is also many countries that have curtailed free speech and then proceeded to fall into despotism and/or genocide. China, Cambodia, Russia, Germany during the third reich(what Anubis is describing is pretty much what happened with the raise of the third reich), Italy, Cuba, and other such places.

    I would rather the government just not have that temptation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Heavy Arms' post seems to be going remarkably unremarked upon here.

    Leave a comment:


  • AzraelFirestorm
    replied
    I like the new Let's Talk Politics thread we have here. Livelier than the old one.

    Leave a comment:


  • AnubisXy
    replied
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    The part of this that is playing the game according to their book is in the frankly baffling assumption that they won't do it until progressives give them some kind of go ahead.
    The thing is, conservative politicians in America couldn't simply pass legislation shutting down minority free speech by themselves. At least in America that sort of law would require some level of bipartisan support to get passed. And fortunately if conservatives tried passing such a law specifically limiting the speech of minority groups, progressives would refuse to go along with it and such a law would never see the light of day (and even many conservatives might not sign onto it).

    But the danger would be when progressives try to pass a law to keep actual hate groups from spewing their filth. Conservatives might go along with that and then if such a law were passed, there's no doubt in my mind that conservatives would be more than happy to twist the intention of that law to shut down groups that they claim are hate groups (such as Black Lives Matter).



    At the end of the day, would you be willing to give Donald Trump, Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan the ability to define what constitutes a "hate group" and then prevent those groups from being able to speak freely? Keep in mind their definition of what a "hate group" and "hate speech" is probably vastly different than yours or mine. Maybe the courts wouldn't allow law enforcement or other groups to use those laws to shut down legitimate minority protest groups, but sadly there is a long history of law enforcement in the US attempting to do just that and all too often courts and judges have sided with them. Giving the government even more power to suppress minority groups would be a very bad idea.
    Last edited by AnubisXy; 12-21-2018, 09:04 AM.

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