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  • Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    Completely unaimed, I'm just blown away by how much people seem to think this is a lot of work and highly confining and restrictive and such. It's not like anyone has to go and become a monk, or drag a piano across a city with a rope, or apply fire to their crotch for ten seconds.

    Like, it's a form. Your players are going to be filling out one anyways. They fill it out, you read it.

    Like, it's world building. You're already building a setting anyways.

    It's also not like you suddenly have to only play Puppies and Pawprints. A large number of the people who advocate for this also make and run games that include all manner of material. Onyx Path includes consent and safety ideas in books that also have characters who laugh ripping throats out and sections on why you should play evil characters.

    To me, this seriously doesn't even look like a molehill, and it blows my mind people are thinking it's some kind of K-2.

    This isn't work. This is just. Stuff.

    I don't think anybody was actually arguing against the use of such a form. Most people's responses seemed to be in agreement that discussing things with your fellow players is generally a good idea. What the last 10 pages were getting up and arms about was whether or not having such material in one's game is something that should be considered a hate crime.

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    • Wow thats some bully language there at the end, but ill do my best to answer your questions in the least hostile of tone possible to maintain a semblance of decorum.

      So question one: both actually. I like to play games at cons with "whoever the fuck" however I do tend to do some homework on the game before I just plop down. I'll approach a game of Kult way differently then say Pugmire given the themes presented in the game itself.

      Also most cons are really good at having a little blurb about the themes and such for the game being run so if the ad doesn't woo me I'll take my ticket's elsewhere. Even then after about an hour of game its easy to get a read on a group and the person running it.

      I also have a home group that I've been playing with for almost two decades now and even then we know each others button's and limits

      As for "some of you who seem offended" have you thought that maybe painting us all as knuckle dragging basement trolls who like only for edge based lulz is rather offensive and stereotyping?

      Question two reads way too much like a true scotsman for me to answer. However I will say that if you sit down for a horror game don't be surprised if something horrific happens.

      Tl;dr you say that anyone who is against the filling out of the sheet is a horrible person deserving of being othered. Isn't that the definition of ideological purity?
      Last edited by Dwight; 09-18-2019, 11:42 PM.


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      • Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
        Completely unaimed, I'm just blown away by how much people seem to think this is a lot of work and highly confining and restrictive and such. It's not like anyone has to go and become a monk, or drag a piano across a city with a rope, or apply fire to their crotch for ten seconds.

        Like, it's a form. Your players are going to be filling out one anyways. They fill it out, you read it.

        Like, it's world building. You're already building a setting anyways.

        It's also not like you suddenly have to only play Puppies and Pawprints. A large number of the people who advocate for this also make and run games that include all manner of material. Onyx Path includes consent and safety ideas in books that also have characters who laugh ripping throats out and sections on why you should play evil characters.

        To me, this seriously doesn't even look like a molehill, and it blows my mind people are thinking it's some kind of K-2.

        This isn't work. This is just. Stuff.
        No one has advocated against the form.

        Except for 1 or two rather strange ones.

        The problem here, is that some seem to believe that using evil races is somehow racist. Why we can't make up a race of antagonists for our players to use as xp farms, I don't know.

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        • I think things got hung up on Nyrufa's reasoning for his choices, despite people knowing he wasn't willing to think about it at a deeper level or change his mind, from his statement, 'I vehemently refuse to believe this, and there is nothing anybody can say on this or any other forum to convince me otherwise.' The cliques didn't help, either.

          I haven't read the way too many posts since I last posted, but Nyrufa's first post was basically filling out the form. Their default rating is R. Red on Romance/Sex with him in a group setting, Fade to Black with group sex, Green with Racism/Sexism, and (this is more inferred by the dozens of posts about it) Red with real world religion and Specific cultural issues (criticism (as in, critical examination for deeper meaning and association with real world cultures)).

          Also keep in mind, peoples, Visitor Messages to another person are not private messages. If you want to send private messages to them you have to click 'Private Message.'
          Last edited by nofather; 09-18-2019, 11:58 PM.

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          • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
            I don't think anybody was actually arguing against the use of such a form.
            Dwight was.


            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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            • Originally posted by Dwight View Post
              have you thought that maybe painting us all as knuckle dragging basement trolls who like only for edge based lulz is rather offensive and stereotyping?
              Who has done that? I have been reading every post in this thread and I have not seen anyone say anything of the sort.

              Originally posted by Dwight View Post
              Tl;dr you say that anyone who is against the filling out of the sheet is a horrible person deserving of being othered. Isn't that the definition of ideological purity?
              Again, when has this happened? Who ever said such a thing?


              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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              • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                Dwight was.
                Technically I'm arguing against being required to use it. Personally I think it's a silly but necessary evil.


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                • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                  Again, when has this happened? Who ever said such a thing?
                  He's referring to me.


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                  • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                    No one has advocated against the form.

                    Except for 1 or two rather strange ones.

                    The problem here, is that some seem to believe that using evil races is somehow racist. Why we can't make up a race of antagonists for our players to use as xp farms, I don't know.

                    The specific complaint was not against the existence of evil groups of monsters. It was just about calling them “races.” And the whole thing has been blown way out of proportion. Like, if you like your goblins to be irredeemable monsters, knock yourself out. When you call them a “race,” though, you imply (intentionally or otherwise) that their relationship to humans is akin to the relationship between real life racial categories. And that can get pretty distasteful even with “races” that aren’t always evil.


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                    • Originally posted by Dwight View Post

                      Technically I'm arguing against being required to use it. Personally I think it's a silly but necessary evil.
                      You’re not required to use it.


                      Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                      • Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                        He's referring to me.

                        You didn’t do those things though.


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                        • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                          You’re not required to use it.
                          And yet if I don't....well you read Arcane's posts....


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                          • Originally posted by Dwight View Post

                            And yet if I don't....well you read Arcane's posts....
                            I did read Arcane’s posts. They expressed confusion at your reference to the form as a purity test, and frustration that your reaction is exactly the sort that tools like this, which could be very helpful to some people, always elicit such reactions as yours from a significant portion of the gaming community.


                            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                            • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post


                              The specific complaint was not against the existence of evil groups of monsters. It was just about calling them “races.” And the whole thing has been blown way out of proportion. Like, if you like your goblins to be irredeemable monsters, knock yourself out. When you call them a “race,” though, you imply (intentionally or otherwise) that their relationship to humans is akin to the relationship between real life racial categories. And that can get pretty distasteful even with “races” that aren’t always evil.
                              Ok, so like, I really, really, really did not wanted to touch that subject with a ten foot stick, but even I have my limits.

                              Look, I don't know where you all come from (not specifically you, Charlaquin. I quot you just because it is the last mention of the subject, so nothing personal, I'm talking in general)- but where I live, calling other ethnic groups of people races IS racist. In school, we are taught again, and again, and again that the concept of "race" does not apply to humans, because biologically speaking we are all the same race. Race is a biological term, that some idiots decided to use for their own idiotic propaganda, twisting science for their own needs. We should not use that term towards other groups of people. On the other hand, orcs, goblins, elves, dwarves and etc are biologically different races than humans. That's science, and as I am a scientist that really cause me to cringe, just as much as calling other ethnic groups "races" or "racial categories" or anything like that causes me to cringe.

                              So yeah, if everyone could please remember that race is a scientific term that some white supermists/ nazis/ other stupid, terrible people have decided to take out of context and ruin the word and which should never, never, never use towards other ethnic groups of homo sapiens, it would be great.


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                              • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                                ...but where I live, calling other ethnic groups of people races IS racist.
                                Because there's a concerted cultural effort to phase out the term... because the older usage is redundant (the earliest references to race are more equivalent to ethnicity and were not scientific but political uses), and the more common usage is actively offensive.

                                In school, we are taught again, and again, and again that the concept of "race" does not apply to humans, because biologically speaking we are all the same race.
                                Then your teachers didn't address the nuance here?

                                Race, since it's been a word in English, has always been a word that solely applies to humans until fantasy and sci-fi writers decided to also start using it to describe human-like species in their settings. Name one thing humans call a race in the physical world besides other humans if you can.

                                We're not supposed to use it, because the biological concept of race is bullshit.

                                Race is a biological term, that some idiots decided to use for their own idiotic propaganda, twisting science for their own needs.
                                No, the biological concept of race was, from the get go racist. The idiots using it for their own idiotic propaganda were scientists; some of them giants of biology to this day. Turns out scientists are human and do stupid human things.

                                Linnaeus himself classified humans into four sub-species or... races... including Homo sapiens afer. H.s. Afer was, of course, for African people. He classified them as different both on morphological grounds, but also other factors such as being the least intelligent race, and the laziest race (if this sounds familiar... it damn well should).

                                That's why we don't want people to call other people "races" any more. From the get go it was a bad idea. As a biologist, I'm pretty invested in not forgetting the mistakes of the past so we don't repeat them; science only grows by recognizing errors, and removing them.

                                On the other hand, orcs, goblins, elves, dwarves and etc are biologically different races than humans.
                                No, they're different species from humans. The biological definition of race was a sub-species of human, so it doesn't actually apply to non-humans in a literal scientific sense.

                                So yeah, if everyone could please remember that race is a scientific term that some white supermists/ nazis/ other stupid, terrible people have decided to take out of context and ruin the word and which should never, never, never use towards other ethnic groups of homo sapiens, it would be great.
                                Except this is a false history. There was not term to ruin. It was racist from the second scientists started using it to confirm the racial biases of their own cultures. The eugenicists and Nazis didn't corrupt it, or take it out of context, or anything like that. They laid bare what the scientists before them always meant.

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