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  • As we are not English speakers, then perhaps some of the context of the word "race" in english is lost to us. We apparently don't use the word "race" the way that english speakers do- for us, "race" is the common word for "species"- that is, it has the same meaning. Language differences does matter, apparently. In my language, the translation of the word "race" is a valid use as a replacement for for translation of the word "species", so as long as it is used in context (that is, referring to other types of beings and not ethnic groups) it is not racist. Using it towards humans is. On the other hand, it seems that for english speaking people, the very use of the word "race" is offensive. Well, I've learned something new

    In that case, I have no issue with calling other "inherit player options" as "species", as it should be.

    EDIT- Hence, why I've started my post with "I don't know from where all of you from". Language is a strange thing, and cultural/ linguistic context is important.
    Last edited by LostLight; 09-19-2019, 04:43 AM.


    My Homebrew Signature

    "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

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    • Thank you for looking past my frustration. I'm glad that however poorly, I managed to help here a little bit.

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      • Originally posted by Dwight View Post
        So I have to pass an ideological purity test to play a game now?
        Yes. The tests will be administered at random by the Woke Police. Failure to comply with the test means all your books and dice will be confiscated. Failure to pass the test means the RPG Illuminati will make you vanish, and your friends will never speak your name again for fear of the same happening to them.

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        • Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
          Gotta say, difference of perspectives I guess but I’m definitely not seeing how people looking at dwarves and not actually seeing Jews hurts me. If anyone actually did see it that’d be different, but considering I’ve gone the past eighteen years of the LotR movies being a thing without finding a single such person I’ll be surprised if I ever do.
          Hi. I'm someone where the thought never occurred to me that dwarves were a caricature of Jews until this very thread.

          Not to say that I had no awareness at all of Jewish stereotypes at all; I do. I just never thought to connect them to archetypal fantasy dwarves.

          For context: I'm a straight, male-identifying Asian-American living in the Greater Los Angeles area of California. I am an introverted person that is very wary about asking anyone, including people in my own family, about their beliefs either political, religious, philosophical, etc. While my step-family and cousins are Jewish, none of them are devout practitioners (that I know of), I've never really sat down to talk with them in-depth about their beliefs, and as far as I know, none of them have any geek interests that would put them in spitting distance of something like D&D, and therefore the conversation about dwarves being an uncomfortable caricature of their faith would not have come up.

          I'm not someone who would be personally affected by this, nor during my lifetime was I surrounded by people who would voice this depiction to me, and as such I never did connect the dots. I'm not intending for this to be an excuse, that's just the way how things shook out for me.

          If anything, what racial minority coding in TRPGs that I did catch without too much prompting was in Shadowrun 4th Edition. Orks/trolls as African-Americans and Hispanics, dwarves as Asians, and elves as upper class privileged whites. And that the developers DO use that coding as a way to explore racism, and is something that's actively commented on within the setting.

          The latter with elves even being reinforced years later in Changeling: the Dreaming, where the sidhe kith are deliberately painted as white privilege with all of the other kiths as not-as-PoC

          The other is in Dragon Age: Origins where Bioware went the opposite direction and coded their elves as indigenous peoples and them being victims of colonial humans...and running with the concept in Origins with deliberate parallels to the unfortunate real life scenarios.

          Although if I'm perfectly honest, for games like D&D or Pathfinder, they would not be my first choice to examine/explore these kind of issues. I personally feel like their mechanics and setting-as-written are ill-suited to explore those kind of things. And I prefer TRPGs that are written with exploring those topics in mind. Especially considering games like D&D and PF are built for more casual, beer & pretzel, chilling with your buddies kind of game.

          Not to say that people can't use it to explore those kind of issues. It's just not one I'm personally interested in doing so.
          Last edited by tasti man LH; 09-19-2019, 05:40 AM.

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          • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
            As we are not English speakers, then perhaps some of the context of the word "race" in english is lost to us. We apparently don't use the word "race" the way that english speakers do- for us, "race" is the common word for "species"- that is, it has the same meaning. Language differences does matter, apparently. In my language, the translation of the word "race" is a valid use as a replacement for for translation of the word "species", so as long as it is used in context (that is, referring to other types of beings and not ethnic groups) it is not racist. Using it towards humans is. On the other hand, it seems that for english speaking people, the very use of the word "race" is offensive. Well, I've learned something new

            In that case, I have no issue with calling other "inherit player options" as "species", as it should be.

            EDIT- Hence, why I've started my post with "I don't know from where all of you from". Language is a strange thing, and cultural/ linguistic context is important.

            If this is true, then America is home to racists as far as the eye can see. I'm in my early 30's, and this is the very first time I'm hearing anybody claim that the concept of "race" was invented as part of some kind of racist propaganda. All throughout my life, just about everybody I've ever met used the word "race" to describe various ethnic groups within human society. The phrase is so widespread at this point, that using it in conversation feels completely natural and is not spoken with any malicious intent. While conversely, trying to find some other way to refer to humans is something of a meme from what I've experienced. "There's only one race, man, the human race!"

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            • I think this form actually exists for everyone, even if we were never aware of it. We all have things we don't like, but never really become issues cause we never encounter them.

              And then THE INTERNET, I mean, super mega conspiracy theory, but what if the internet is really an Alien Psychology Test to figure out what humans are really like? Like that test the guys in Blade Runner give to suspected Replicants?

              And maybe, even tho deep down we really are bothered by some stuff, it doesn't really bother us enough to be considered a blip? Like the ear worms in Star Trek 2, Nobody should like that really happened, but comes up so little that no one thinks of it as a trigger? Just cause you can deal with it at the levels it occurs, don't mean it's meaningless. I mean, one dog barking at you from behind a fence, but then a pack of unattended dogs chasing you in the middle of the street?

              Just because you're woke or unbothered doesn't mean there won't be someone else that's not yet woke or can't wrap their mind around spiders

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              • Race?

                Saying the words 'race' is racist? Well, that's unfortunate

                *glances at every single form I've filled in since I could write*

                I guess that the racists have won.

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                • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                  If this is true, then America is home to racists as far as the eye can see. I'm in my early 30's, and this is the very first time I'm hearing anybody claim that the concept of "race" was invented as part of some kind of racist propaganda. All throughout my life, just about everybody I've ever met used the word "race" to describe various ethnic groups within human society. The phrase is so widespread at this point, that using it in conversation feels completely natural and is not spoken with any malicious intent. While conversely, trying to find some other way to refer to humans is something of a meme from what I've experienced. "There's only one race, man, the human race!"
                  As I've mentioned in the quoted post, in my country english is not the native language. We seem to use the term "race" in a radically different way than how you do. In here, when you use the translated term for a "race", it refers to a species, subspecies or a breed. That is, to a different type of being. Using the translated word for "race" towards humans would imply that they are different from humans, and as such, doing so will be racist. In my language, if you are to refer to a different group/tribe/clan/nation/etc of people, you should use the words which are translated into "folk", "culture", "people", "nationality" or "ethnic group". Different languages, different cultures, and it is not the first time that differences in translation causes such issues.

                  So yeah, when a whole country use the term "race" towards other nations and ethnic groups, and they use a word which you translate as a word used to describe the difference between breeds of dogs or separate donkeys from horses where you live, it is a little wonder why you would want to yell "WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!"


                  My Homebrew Signature

                  "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

                  I now blog in here

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                  • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                    As I've mentioned in the quoted post, in my country english is not the native language. We seem to use the term "race" in a radically different way than how you do. In here, when you use the translated term for a "race", it refers to a species, subspecies or a breed. That is, to a different type of being. Using the translated word for "race" towards humans would imply that they are different from humans, and as such, doing so will be racist. In my language, if you are to refer to a different group/tribe/clan/nation/etc of people, you should use the words which are translated into "folk", "culture", "people", "nationality" or "ethnic group". Different languages, different cultures, and it is not the first time that differences in translation causes such issues.

                    So yeah, when a whole country use the term "race" towards other nations and ethnic groups, and they use a word which you translate as a word used to describe the difference between breeds of dogs or separate donkeys from horses where you live, it is a little wonder why you would want to yell "WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!"
                    Well, unfortunately for you, I use the word 'race' differently. When I say 'race', I mean different ethnicities. Like, what are you? Chinese, Malay, Japanese, Korean, or Indian?

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                    • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                      Well, unfortunately for you, I use the word 'race' differently. When I say 'race', I mean different ethnicities. Like, what are you? Chinese, Malay, Japanese, Korean, or Indian?
                      Yes, I understand it now- and I don't understand why it is "unfortunate" to me. I now understands that for english speakers race means other thing, and why using the term towards orcs is a bad thing, while using the translation in my language is an exact term. Now that I understand it, I can move on with my life and not cringe every time someone use the term "race" towards other humans in english. I would probably still won't use it, because of the way I'm used to refer other nationalities, but I don't care anymore.

                      So yeah, I think I have more or less finished in this thread. You are welcomed to keep discussing about if you should call orcs races, humans races, races races and potatoes tomatoes. Have fun.


                      My Homebrew Signature

                      "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

                      I now blog in here

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                      • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                        Race?

                        Saying the words 'race' is racist? Well, that's unfortunate

                        *glances at every single form I've filled in since I could write*

                        I guess that the racists have won.

                        Yeah, that's true! We even put the word on school tests and medical forms!

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                        • I vote that we make a new name that replaces the words 'species', 'race', and etc!

                          Any takers?

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                          • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                            If this is true, then America is home to racists as far as the eye can see.
                            For a given definition of “racists,” yes, it is. Racism is deeply ingrained into our social and political institutions, such that most of us hold onto ideas that are rooted in racism without even realizing it. One does not have to be a white supremeicist or to consciously believe people of other ethnicities inferior to have racist ideas.

                            Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                            I'm in my early 30's, and this is the very first time I'm hearing anybody claim that the concept of "race" was invented as part of some kind of racist propaganda.
                            It’s very widely accepted historical fact. Just google “scientific racism,” you’ll find plenty of sources of info about it.

                            Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                            All throughout my life, just about everybody I've ever met used the word "race" to describe various ethnic groups within human society. The phrase is so widespread at this point, that using it in conversation feels completely natural and is not spoken with any malicious intent.
                            Yep, because racism is ingrained in the very fabric of our culture and institutions.

                            Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                            While conversely, trying to find some other way to refer to humans is something of a meme from what I've experienced. "There's only one race, man, the human race!"
                            Maybe it’s a meme in the social circles you spend time in. In the scientific community, the italicized statement isn’t a joke, it’s an uncontroversial statement of fact. Race, as it has historically been defined, is not real.

                            The problem is, many of us were raised to believe that race is real, but doesn’t matter. The truth is exactly the opposite. Race is not real, but it does matter.


                            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                            • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                              Race?

                              Saying the words 'race' is racist? Well, that's unfortunate

                              *glances at every single form I've filled in since I could write*

                              I guess that the racists have won.

                              America is literally built on slavery and genocide, dude. There racists didn’t just “win,” they’ve been in top since the beginning. Since then it’s been a constant battle, and we’ve made a lot of progress, but there’s still a long way to go.


                              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                              • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post


                                America is literally built on slavery and genocide, dude. There racists didn’t just “win,” they’ve been in top since the beginning. Since then it’s been a constant battle, and we’ve made a lot of progress, but there’s still a long way to go.
                                I'm not american.

                                The internet is not american.

                                The world is not America.

                                Keep that in mind.

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