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  • Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post

    Do note that it’s possible to get less-than-coincidental totally by accident, which if anything is where at least half the danger lies in practice.
    The thing is, it doesn’t really matter if it’s coincidental or not. What matters is the effects of our actions, not the intent behind them. If I drive my car into a space that is coincidentally occupied by another car, I’m responsible for the damages, regardless of if it was my intent to cause them.


    Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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    • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
      Of course, but I will not apologize for a crime I didn't commit. If there are allegorical similarities between fantasy and reality when I did not intend for them to be there, then that's just an unfortunate coincidence.
      Funny you should mention crime, because in the law, intent doesn’t matter for much. Sure, manslaughter isn’t punished as severely as murder, but it’s still a crime. Just because it’s not your intent to do harm doesn’t mean your actions can't be harmful, or that you aren’t still responsible for the harm they cause.


      Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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      • So on the original subject of this thread (which lasted more or less for one page before it devolved into "racism and etc." thread, more or less), I think that my main issue with it is the checklist. I mean, I do recognize that every person has things they would not like to feature in a game, but playing an RPG is a social gathering. Having each person signing a contract of what cause them feel bad during a game and what doesn't feels, well, forced. It feels like going out with friends, but beforehand we all sign a paper where we proclaim on which subjects we should avoid talking, but it cause us feel uncomfortable (or outright getting a panic attack).

        I'm not saying that the players and the GM should not talk about what they would or would not like in their game. On the contrary- they should talk about it. If there is something you would really, really don't want to have in a game, you should talk about it with the other players. If something which goes beyond what you would like to have in a game happens, you should talk with your GM about it. And after a very, difficult scene, the players should all sit together with each other and talk about whether or not one of the players or the GM have crosses the lines. It happened in the group I play in where one of the players turned the corpse of the fallen villain into a sock puppet. It was way too much for me, as well as for some players, and so we talked about it. Also when one of the players have killed some NPC without the consent of the rest of the group. Again, we talked about it- and while we have not reached a consensus, we did reached a concord.

        In short, I don't think that having a checklist about "what subjects bother me and what doesn't" because it feel like it replaces a real, human interaction where players talk about subjects which bothers them. More than that, some players may discover that subjects that they did not mentioned in the checklist actually bothers them, while those they thought did were actually a way to deal with issues they couldn't have in real life. And it is also really hard to bother to predict what would cause a certain player to feel uncomfortable. For example, one of my players took it really hard that I gave them a writing exercise in order to develop their characters, saying that I forced her to write against her will. I explained to her that I had no idea that she took it that hard, as she never said anything, and that next time if I tell her to do something she doesn't like, that she would please inform me about it.

        I mean, when asking a player to expand the backstory of their character could cause a player discomfort, I can't really see the use for such a checklist. Talk with your group, don't force them to fill a piece of paper. That's my opinion, at least.


        My Homebrew Signature

        "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

        I now blog in here

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        • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
          Funny you should mention crime, because in the law, intent doesn’t matter for much. Sure, manslaughter isn’t punished as severely as murder, but it’s still a crime. Just because it’s not your intent to do harm doesn’t mean your actions can't be harmful, or that you aren’t still responsible for the harm they cause.

          Perhaps, but there is a pretty substantial difference between accidentally ending somebody's life, and accidentally misrepresenting somebody you weren't even trying to imitate in the first place.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Nyrufa
            Of course, but I will not apologize for a crime I didn't commit. If there are allegorical similarities between fantasy and reality when I did not intend for them to be there, then that's just an unfortunate coincidence.
            "Of course, but I will not apologize for stepping on your foot. If I stepped on your foot when I did not intend to, then that's an unfortunate coincidence."*

            Of course, I assume in this scenario a person who stepped on another person's foot would at least be therefore mindful of not stepping on other people's feet afterwards, as opposed to obstinately continuing to just tread where they will, other people's feet be damned.

            Like, no one is asking people who make these mistakes to get nailed to a cross they carried up the hill, we just want people to learn from the mistake and move on. It's not a big deal. Is it such a big deal to just be accountable?

            *Alternatively, "Of course, but I will not apologize for crashing into your car and maiming you. If I crashed a car and maimed you when I did not intend to, then that's an unfortunate coincidence." I have a million of these, and none of them sound good.


            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
            Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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            • Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post

              "Of course, but I will not apologize for stepping on your foot. If I stepped on your foot when I did not intend to, then that's an unfortunate coincidence."*

              Of course, I assume in this scenario a person who stepped on another person's foot would at least be therefore mindful of not stepping on other people's feet afterwards, as opposed to obstinately continuing to just tread where they will, other people's feet be damned.

              Like, no one is asking people who make these mistakes to get nailed to a cross they carried up the hill, we just want people to learn from the mistake and move on. It's not a big deal. Is it such a big deal to just be accountable?

              *Alternatively, "Of course, but I will not apologize for crashing into your car and maiming you. If I crashed a car and maimed you when I did not intend to, then that's an unfortunate coincidence." I have a million of these, and none of them sound good.

              Please see my above post, if you want me to reply to that laughable attempt at countering my argument.

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              • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                Perhaps, but there is a pretty substantial difference between accidentally ending somebody's life, and accidentally misrepresenting somebody you weren't even trying to imitate in the first place.
                Of course there is. I don’t think anyone would dispute that. Unintentionally including some unfortunate implications in one’s creative work is not some heinous act deserving of serious punishment. Indeed, it’s something pretty much all creators do from time to time. The issue is not that you accidentally included racist undertones in your writing or your game or whatever, the issue is that when the presence of these undertones is pointed out, instead of taking the critique seriously, apologizing for any harm you may have unintentionally caused, and striving to be more aware of the potential impact of one’s creative work in the future, you attempt to dodge responsibility and make excuses, or worse claim that no harm was actually done.

                Arc may have been a little hyperbolic with the car accident thing, but the analogy to stepping on someone’s foot is a very apt one. If you stepped on someone’s foot by accident, would you claim that you shouldn’t have to apologize for a crime you didn’t commit, or try to argue that there is no problem? I don’t imagine so. I’d like to think you would say, “oh, sorry, I didn’t mean to step on your foot,” and probably try not to do it again. So why is your response to having it pointed out that your fantasy setting has some pretty uncomfortable themes surrounding race any different?


                Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                  Of course, but I will not apologize for a crime I didn't commit.
                  So this is the part that’s rubbing people the wrong way and for good reason. People apologize all the time for things they did by accident, it’s a very normal and considerate thing to do.

                  Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                  The thing is, it doesn’t really matter if it’s coincidental or not. What matters is the effects of our actions, not the intent behind them. If I drive my car into a space that is coincidentally occupied by another car, I’m responsible for the damages, regardless of if it was my intent to cause them.
                  That’s exactly what I was pointing out, yes.

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                  • The hyperbole is more there to point down the way of myriad examples. The idea at work sucks in any of it's incarnations.


                    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                    Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                      Of course there is. I don’t think anyone would dispute that. Unintentionally including some unfortunate implications in one’s creative work is not some heinous act deserving of serious punishment. Indeed, it’s something pretty much all creators do from time to time. The issue is not that you accidentally included racist undertones in your writing or your game or whatever, the issue is that when the presence of these undertones is pointed out, instead of taking the critique seriously, apologizing for any harm you may have unintentionally caused, and striving to be more aware of the potential impact of one’s creative work in the future, you attempt to dodge responsibility and make excuses, or worse claim that no harm was actually done.

                      Arc may have been a little hyperbolic with the car accident thing, but the analogy to stepping on someone’s foot is a very apt one. If you stepped on someone’s foot by accident, would you claim that you shouldn’t have to apologize for a crime you didn’t commit, or try to argue that there is no problem? I don’t imagine so. I’d like to think you would say, “oh, sorry, I didn’t mean to step on your foot,” and probably try not to do it again. So why is your response to having it pointed out that your fantasy setting has some pretty uncomfortable themes surrounding race any different?

                      Well, according to what others have previously stated on this thread, a person's imagination is influenced by memories and real world experiences. And if that's the kind of thought process we're going by, then to me it sounds like it would be nigh impossible to include any degree of world building in a setting, because the cultures we design "have to come from somewhere" and chances are, that somewhere is derived from people who exist in real life. It sounds like I'm going to offend somebody no matter what I do, so my only option is to simply accept the fact that I can't please everyone, or else give up trying to create any kind of story at all.

                      If I might back track a little on my last cannibal comment. I would like to try and clarify that I enjoy the concept of there being characters in the setting who engage in that sort of stuff. I enjoy the idea of a quiet little town that secretly engages in demon worship. I enjoy the fantasy of there being a tribe of huge, burly warriors that go on raids and pillage the countryside. I enjoy the trope of Goblins being crazy little anarchists.

                      That is all these characters are to me, ideas, tropes and fantasies that I choose to include within the narrative because I enjoy their concepts. They are not meant to be an actual correlation to any existing peoples.

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                      • In general if I hurt someone and didn't mean to do it, I'll apologize for doing it. While I didn't intend to do harm to that person, I did harm them nevertheless and they deserve an apology for that. On the other hand if I hurt someone because I intended to hurt them, then I'm not going to apologize for hurting them (or if I do apologize it would probably be a very sarcastic and demeaning one).

                        So in my experience, if Person A hurts Person B, and Person B points this out ("Hey, that hurt. Please don't do that.") and Person A refuses to issue an apology or stop doing it, my first thought is going to be that either Person A intended to hurt Person B to begin with, or simply does not care at all that he hurt Person B, which makes Person A, at the absolute best, a jerk.

                        Note that I'm not calling anyone in this thread a jerk, but this is my general "default" thought process when I see someone get hurt in some way, even by accident, and there's a refusal to issue any sort of apology for that.

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                        • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                          Well, according to what others have previously stated on this thread, a person's imagination is influenced by memories and real world experiences. And if that's the kind of thought process we're going by, then to me it sounds like it would be nigh impossible to include any degree of world building in a setting, because the cultures we design "have to come from somewhere" and chances are, that somewhere is derived from people who exist in real life. It sounds like I'm going to offend somebody no matter what I do, so my only option is to simply accept the fact that I can't please everyone, or else give up trying to create any kind of story at all.
                          Maybe, maybe not, and the way to find out for any given player/group is to ask.

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                          • Originally posted by Nyrufa
                            It sounds like I'm going to offend somebody no matter what I do, so my only option is to simply accept the fact that I can't please everyone, or else give up trying to create any kind of story at all.
                            "I can't be bothered to stop hurting you."

                            Truly the superior argument!

                            Dude, I'm telling you as someone who was making your arguments back in 2010-it's not that big of a deal to just try. You learn, you practice, you get good at it, and you keep at it.


                            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                            Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                              In general if I hurt someone and didn't mean to do it, I'll apologize for doing it. While I didn't intend to do harm to that person, I did harm them nevertheless and they deserve an apology for that. On the other hand if I hurt someone because I intended to hurt them, then I'm not going to apologize for hurting them (or if I do apologize it would probably be a very sarcastic and demeaning one).

                              So in my experience, if Person A hurts Person B, and Person B points this out ("Hey, that hurt. Please don't do that.") and Person A refuses to issue an apology or stop doing it, my first thought is going to be that either Person A intended to hurt Person B to begin with, or simply does not care at all that he hurt Person B, which makes Person A, at the absolute best, a jerk.

                              Note that I'm not calling anyone in this thread a jerk, but this is my general "default" thought process when I see someone get hurt in some way, even by accident, and there's a refusal to issue any sort of apology for that.


                              Okay, so then answer me this: Who should I apologize to? If I include a tribe of generic cannibals in the story, should I offer an official declaration to every culture in the world who ever had a period of eating humans at some point in their history?

                              If I include a generic band of marauding soldiers / barbarians / mercenaries, should I apologize to... oh... how about 100% of the global population? Because I'm pretty sure our ancestors did not exactly get along with each other throughout most of history.

                              If you truly want an apology from me in order to feel better about the situation, then fine, I apologize that my generic fantasy trope offended you in some way. But that doesn't mean I'm going to scrap the entire setting and rebuild it from scratch in the vain hope of creating a mature themed story that everybody in the world can enjoy together.


                              Sith_Happens

                              Yes, that should be addressed preferably before the session begins, rather than partway through. Preferably without giving away plot spoilers, if you can.
                              Last edited by Nyrufa; 09-18-2019, 01:45 PM.

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                              • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                                Okay, so then answer me this: Who should I apologize to? If I include a tribe of generic cannibals in the story, should I offer an official declaration to every culture in the world who ever had a period of eating humans at some point in their history?

                                If I include a generic band of marauding soldiers / barbarians / mercenaries, should I apologize to... oh... how about 100% of the global population? Because I'm pretty sure our ancestors did not exactly get along with each other throughout most of history.
                                I mean, it doesn't seem hard to me.

                                If one of your players says, "Hey, were you aware that this group of X that you designed contains a lot of tropes or ideas that are problematic and have been used as a way to oppress or hurt people. I didn't care much for that," I think the proper response would be to go, "Whoops. I didn't mean to do that and wasn't aware of it. Sorry if you or anyone else found that offensive or upsetting!" That's really all it takes.

                                If you want, you can then go on, "Here was my thought process for how I created this group of people and why I designed them to embody elements that I was not aware were offensive or would upset anyone. Since I obviously don't want to upset the people playing in my game session, and don't want them coming away from my game thinking I'm a jerk or anything, do you have any idea on how this group could be modified to be less offensive without losing the the themes and ideas that I feel they need to embody?"

                                Ultimately RPGs are a collaborative experience, so if your players aren't enjoying it because they find certain elements to be problematic, and tell you why they're not enjoying it, then it would be in your best interest to work with them to make things more enjoyable for them. Because if they're enjoying your game, you'll enjoy running your game. If they don't like it, you won't have much fun running it either.

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