Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Al-Qadim, Oriental Adventures and problems

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
    On a meta-level, when it comes to whether it is "worth it" to improve such products
    The podcast people don't think Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim are worth improving but point out that Kara-Tur still exists as part of Abeir-Toril in 5th edition and was mentioned in an official source book as recently as 2015, to say nothing of its formative influences on L5R.


    Onyx Path Forum Moderator
    Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
      But that doesn't mean the authors of these books were racist, it just means there is room for depth and polished and new ideas and innovations in these settings.
      That is quite literally the expressed purpose of the podcast, a mission statement that they repeat at the beginning of every single episode. Every episode is about talking about how things could be better in the product.

      Also, I echo that using "woke" as a derisive term doesn't really help in making people take you seriously. Using real arguments instead of slogans overused to the point of self-parody would help you get your point across better.

      Comment


      • #93
        Worth noting: Daniel Kwan authored an adventure in the new Candlekeep Mysteries book, which I’m hearing is quite good.


        Remi. she/her. game designer.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post

          Nothing unreasonable to that, although I'm not that isn't unqiue to Asians or Muslims, Italians for example.

          But that doesn't mean the authors of these books were racist, it just means there is room for depth and polished and new ideas and innovations in these settings.
          You don't need to be racist to create something racist. Pointing out why something plays into prejudice and stereotypes or clearly didn't have enough research going into it isn't the same as tarring the authors as racist. Trying to turn it into a defence against an imagined attack against the authors' character is a deflection - and I've seen enough by now to see that it almost always happens.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

            To be fair, Sucker Punch worked pretty closely with a number of Japanese individuals, programmers, historians and cultural experts when they created the game. The only major dissonant note was the inclusion of haiku (which was anachronistic since the haiku form hadn't been invented at the time in Japan). So the important thing to note was that Ghost of Tsushima was very respectful towards Japanese culture and worked closely with Japanese people in order to produce the game. That's one of the reasons why it was pretty popular in Japan because Japanese people could tell that they had approaching the game from a position of being respectful as well as making a really good game.
            I feel it's really important to mention the vast gulf between Ghost of Tsushima's reception among the Japanese, and Ghost of Tsushima's reception among the asian-americans and people claiming to represent them. Because the latter absolutely hated it on release. Gaming media was littered with articles about Ghost of Tsushima being shallow, white, racist, or nationalist.

            http://archive.md/DS3As
            https://archive.vn/3dqrz

            What Ghost of Tsushima clearly showed is that there's an unbridgeable divide between people living in a country, and expatriates in the US/descendants of expatriates, and they absolutely do not agree on what is a good representation of culture.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Kammerer View Post

              I feel it's really important to mention the vast gulf between Ghost of Tsushima's reception among the Japanese, and Ghost of Tsushima's reception among the asian-americans and people claiming to represent them. Because the latter absolutely hated it on release. Gaming media was littered with articles about Ghost of Tsushima being shallow, white, racist, or nationalist.

              http://archive.md/DS3As
              https://archive.vn/3dqrz

              What Ghost of Tsushima clearly showed is that there's an unbridgeable divide between people living in a country, and expatriates in the US/descendants of expatriates, and they absolutely do not agree on what is a good representation of culture.
              I would say the people who live in the culture to say if its a good or not. I don't get to speak over people the people living in the countries of my ancestors. My family is no longer living in that culture.

              Comment


              • #97
                I would say expatriots and people in a given culture both can have a say, since cultural stereotypes affect both those groups in different ways.

                For example, someone who is a Japanese-American living in America going to have to deal with American views and interpretations about Japan (and about people from Japan) on a much more frequent and much more personal basis than Japanese people living in Japan. Someone in Japan might see wrong ideas or bad stereotypes about Japan/Japanese people pop up in a game, or a movie, or a book from America and think, "Wow, those silly Americans, it's not really like that," but whether Americans believe those wrong ideas or stereotypes probably won't impact them. To someone who is Japanese who actually lives in America though, they might find themselves impacted when other Americans might believe those wrong ideas or bad stereotypes about Japanese people.

                The stereotype that some Americans/westerners hold that Asians are good at math and know martial arts doesn't mean much to people who live in a country like Japan or China, but in the US, Asian-Americans can sometimes find themselves actually having to deal with those stereotypes, and not in a good way.

                So I don't have an issue with Americans of Japanese descent pointing out when a game isn't presenting their culture or homeland in a correct way and could give people the wrong idea about Japan and the people who live(ed) there. And that's true for people of any other culture or nation as well.

                Comment


                • #98
                  When comes to cases like this or something wearing the Kimono I think I will still side with the people who live in that homeland and are part of that culture Like I said I can't tell people not to wear what some would call traditional wear from where I am descended from if the majority of the people still living in that culture thinks its fine because although my family still keeps traditions alive and in the family like dances, music, and celebrations I am no longer a part of that country.

                  this is not to say I think stereotypes are ok. Just when it comes to what a culture thinks is a fine depecition. I am going to believe the people who live in that country.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    I have a very hard disagree with that. Culture and Nation are not synonymous, nor is culture bound to its place of origin. My partner is part of the Canadian South Asian diaspora and you would have a very hard time arguing to either of us that her opinion on what is acceptable/appropriative/racist towards South Asians in Canada matter less than someone living in Kutch. Dismissing her lived experience and relation to her culture simply because she and her family live somewhere different from their ancestors feels very reductive and yucky to me.


                    Patreon | He/His Pronouns | Currently writing: Tome of the Pentacle (OPP), The Hedge (OPP)

                    CofD booklists: Beast I Changeling | Demon | Deviant (WIP) | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire | Werewolf

                    Comment


                    • I think where there is conflict, it's a difficult one to balance. On the one hand, diaspora populations are often unrepresentative of home country in class, aspirations, values, knowledge of history and have biases, and it seems wrong to privilege the voices of "the same people" who happen to be in your country and speak English (and generally tend to be wealthier, higher educated and priviliged).

                      On the other, some countries are relatively unfree, or have strongly propagandistic media (e.g. would I really trust accounts of Chinese history influenced and vetted by The Party more than someone from the diaspora? Or likewise for Russia for example? Not really). In the case of Japan, I would generally go with what seems right to people from the home country (in part because it seems like the media and higher education system is qualitatively better there, whereas really quite bad here, and that matters), and that seems like the right thing to do in cases of conflict unless there's a strong reason not to. But it's not totally clear cut.

                      Comment


                      • You would do well to remember that first gen immigrants are very different from the second gen. From anecdotal, personal experience I've also found one or two 1/8th -ethnic minority group here- to have ideas about perceived racism that are drastically different from the people in -ethnic minority group- that aren't at least 7/8ths white.

                        There's a big difference between now and the 90s. In the 90s, research was hard, and often relied on rather terrible material from the 19th century that the information age hadn't called out yet. Now, most of that shit doesn't stand. So, if you take the time to look at things properly, you can find anything. But I suppose you still get idiots that write shit like Mulan...

                        The "Everything is racist, everything is sexist and you have to call it out" attitude is one of the greatest acts of sabbotage to progressive movements there has ever been in the last 30 years. Some people might mean well when they call out this stuff, but it's often so bull-headedly stupid that it ends up counterproductive. They hold up a group as some sacred, pure, always-the-victim, often anti-modern ideal. It's patronizing to that group and it builds resentment among those who aren't getting such special treatment.


                        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

                        Comment


                        • While it’s certainly interesting when the people being depicted or used for inspiration receive the work differently than expats or descendants thereof in the place of publication, it’s not a “Who’s right” issue. The former are the preferred authorities on accuracy while the latter are usually who you’re trying to avoid harm to, which are interdependent but still distinct goals.

                          Comment


                          • but how can you reconcile the two? I mean obvious racism is pretty clear cut, but what do you do if the one is against the other? With Ghost of Tsushima Japan loved it. The island of Tsushima loved it because while it wasn't nearly historically accurate it did bring attention to the island and its history. So who do you side with in this situation?

                            Comment


                            • You don't have to "side" with anyone. You can just acknowledge that it was a fun, cool game that got some stuff quite wrong in ways that played into stereotypes and could have been better, while also doing some stuff right. It's not as if it's an "either/or" proposition. You can point out and acknowledge the flaws that a product has and encourage a company to do better next time while also enjoying a product, such as it is.

                              This is where many RPG products (Al-Qadim, KotE, etc) are. You can have fun with the product while still acknowledging the flaws in the product, and hopefully if you use that product at your table you'll take a little bit of time to do your own research and improve on the product. And ideally if the game companies decide to bring that content back, they'll update it in a way that removes those flaws or otherwise seeks to improve the quality of the content in their books so that it isn't held together by stereotypes or other negative ideas like the original books were.
                              Last edited by AnubisXy; 03-11-2021, 09:58 PM.

                              Comment


                              • It's not an easy question to answer, even with best intentions. But "I'm going to listen to people who live in their culture's home country and ignore expatriates/diaspora members" is a spectacularly bad way of handling it.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X