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  • Originally posted by Second Chances View Post
    Because subs convey the original emotion more reliably and some dubs are terrible because of North America's Animation Ghetto?
    I never liked that justification to begin with. Mostly because to me, it sounds like people are trying to weasel out of judging a show's acting by falling back on their ignorance of a foreign language.

    That because it's a language that you aren't intimately fluent in, any nuances in delivery and inflection that will register as "natural" will be lost on you. That your only point of comparison is your own native language...which means you can only judge the acting in broad strokes that may not actually be completely accurate to what's actually being said. Sub quality (especially in official channels like Crunchyroll, Funimation, Viz Media, etc) has gone up in recent years, even if it's 99.99% accurate...there's still that 0.01%.

    What's more damning is that, in Japan, when it comes to their fans and imported Western cartoons...apparently they have a similar debate where to them, subbed versions are the way to go because "the English audio sounds better then the Japanese dub".

    There's a difference between "I *think* it sounds better" versus "I *know* it sounds better".

    Also, the Japanese title songs are often way more balling than the English.
    ...are you referring to the old practice of the Japanese songs getting translated and sung in English? If so...isn't that something the English licensing companies don't do anymore?

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    • My only point of weighing in is that I only have three-ish on each subject I feel have to absolutely be watched in a particular language, because otherwise, near two decades worth of watching anime has yielded such a wide variety of language deliveries that trying to nail advantages for and against either feel arbitrary.

      The three musts for dubs are Sailor Moon(and heretically, the Saban/Dic dubs), Cowboy Bebop, and Ghost Stories.
      The three must for subs are anything by Kunihiko Ikuhara(cheating, I know, but most of you are only gonna watch Revolutionary Girl Utena-still, watch Penguindrum and Yurikuma Arashi in Japanese), Weiss Kreuz, and Ancient Magus' Bride.
      Last edited by ArcaneArts; 06-29-2018, 02:19 AM.


      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
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      • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

        There's a difference between "I *think* it sounds better" versus "I *know* it sounds better".

        ...are you referring to the old practice of the Japanese songs getting translated and sung in English? If so...isn't that something the English licensing companies don't do anymore?
        Sure, but there's also something to be said for "I think it sounds emotional and dramatic" vs "I know it sounds campy and childish." Admittedly, that may be a bug rather than a feature, but does it matter if it improves your enjoyment of a work?

        Also, it may just be a me thing, but if the dubbing is poorly done and out of sync with the character's mouth moving or sound effects, it takes me straight out of the show. The only time I can enjoy it is when watching the original Iron Chef, otherwise it's an instant killjoy. Not a huge issue these days, but it could account for how some of my tastes formed.

        And no, I'm talking about anime with totally different intros. The ony English intros I've found that I prefer over Japanese are Dragonball Z and Pokemon. Given my age, those are basically the first two animes I watched (although Sailor Moon is in there too. It gets a tie between the two, I like them both but for different reasons.)

        EDIT: Speaking of intros though, did Jam Project create their own personal fountain of youth? I want to look that young when I'm 50!
        Last edited by Second Chances; 06-29-2018, 02:24 AM.


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        • Originally posted by Second Chances View Post
          Sure, but there's also something to be said for "I think it sounds emotional and dramatic" vs "I know it sounds campy and childish." Admittedly, that may be a bug rather than a feature, but does it matter if it improves your enjoyment of a work?
          ...you mean how anime is normally campy and childish sounding?

          Most anime dialogue is in written in a very informal and a bit "punk-ish" way. The type that would be quite unsuited for regular Japanese conversation. If the English acting was campy and childish...that's probably because the original dialogue was like that as well.

          Plus, isn't most people's complaints about English dubbing is, not of it being "campy and childish" but more "bored and wooden"?

          Either way, I'm aware of time when the worst dubbing was stuff like this, this, and this (slightly NSFW). Quite frankly, I think people now overstate the "bad" quality of dubbing now compared to back then.

          Also, it may just be a me thing, but if the dubbing is poorly done and out of sync with the character's mouth moving or sound effects, it takes me straight out of the show. The only time I can enjoy it is when watching the original Iron Chef, otherwise it's an instant killjoy. Not a huge issue these days, but it could account for how some of my tastes formed.
          Anime it's generally not an issue due to how lip flaps are not as pronounced. Mostly due to how in anime, they rarely ever show the full shape of character's lips to notice the off movements. Not the same case with live action. Lips are much more defined, and thus off movements are far more noticeable.

          And no, I'm talking about anime with totally different intros.
          ...so a practice that hasn't been done regularly in anime for years?

          (except for children's anime like Pokemon, which is a completely different situation)

          EDIT: Speaking of intros though, did Jam Project create their own personal fountain of youth? I want to look that young when I'm 50!
          Because of course the conquistadors got it wrong: the Fountain of Youth was never in Japan to begin with. It was in Asia the whole time!!!

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          • Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
            The three musts for dubs are Sailor Moon(and heretically, the Saban/Dic dubs),
            ...gawd. I remember when Viz first announced they were re-dubbing the original show, old school fans were in an uproar that they weren't going to at least TRY to restore the original DiC dub. Was it really paramount that they get the dub where Usagi was still called Serena?

            Cowboy Bebop,
            The thing I've noticed is that English dubs tend to shine if the anime is set with a non-Japanese setting with (mostly) non-Japanese characters. That the English actors are able to act without having to deal with Japanese names and cultural terminology, or have the odd disparity of characters who are supposed to be native Japanese speaking fluent English. Highlight dubs in this regard for me include Black Lagoon, Spice and Wolf, and Ancient Magus Bride.

            and Ghost Stories.
            Isn't that the dub that's mostly enjoyed in the...ironic sense?

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            • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

              ...gawd. I remember when Viz first announced they were re-dubbing the original show, old school fans were in an uproar that they weren't going to at least TRY to restore the original DiC dub. Was it really paramount that they get the dub where Usagi was still called Serena?



              The thing I've noticed is that English dubs tend to shine if the anime is set with a non-Japanese setting with (mostly) non-Japanese characters. That the English actors are able to act without having to deal with Japanese names and cultural terminology, or have the odd disparity of characters who are supposed to be native Japanese speaking fluent English. Highlight dubs in this regard for me include Black Lagoon, Spice and Wolf, and Ancient Magus Bride.



              Isn't that the dub that's mostly enjoyed in the...ironic sense?
              In order:

              1a) The Dic dub has a charm to it that the ironically more faithful Viz dub does not, namely in that there's a lot of time where Dic got the feel of teenagers right for me where the seriousness of the Viz does not, at least for me. Viz kind of feels flat to me in comparison, lacking a lot of the characterization that, love it or hate it, Dic had. Tristan of Glass Reflection tapped a time where I actually did like that translation here.
              1b) Also, let it be said while it can be cheesy, hokey, sanitized and perhaps even straight up dumb, I think it's important to note that not only was this the dub of my youth, but it is critically the delivery that got me to be the Sailor Moon fan I am still today. Even if the Viz dub is technically better, it's hard to argue against a dub when it worked as well as it did, particularly in light of it's flaws-and the Dic dub is way more responsible for the size of the fanbase for the show than the Viz one.
              2) Truth, though for me I ran into the problem with Ancient Magus' Bride- not because I found it bad, just that I had spent so much time falling in love with the Japanese sub that I found I couldn't go over to the English dub of it despite the dub making it work better within both my own Western context and that of the show's setting. Still, the principle holds and is much correct, even in that instance.

              Semi-related, Ancient Magus' Bride was one of the two anime that made me fall in love with anime again last year and I associate myself waaaayy too much with Chise.
              3)They took a show that was doing shit, were given only three rules not to break, and went hog wild. There's no ironically liking that, it is straight up great.


              Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
              Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.
              Currently Working On: Memento Mori(GtSE)

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              • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post





                The thing I've noticed is that English dubs tend to shine if the anime is set with a non-Japanese setting with (mostly) non-Japanese characters. That the English actors are able to act without having to deal with Japanese names and cultural terminology, or have the odd disparity of characters who are supposed to be native Japanese speaking fluent English. Highlight dubs in this regard for me include Black Lagoon, Spice and Wolf, and Ancient Magus Bride.


                Hellsing Ultimate has only 1 legitimate Japanese character in the whole series, the rest are mostly Europeans.

                Now I want you to consider what that means... There are German Nazi's who try to invade the city of London, while everybody communicates in Japanese!

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                • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

                  ...you mean how anime is normally campy and childish sounding?
                  It's different though, especially with Shonen content. Take Naruto for example, the Japanese voice work is aimed at 12-15 year old Japanese boys; yes it is slangy and not the way adults speak, but the English dub is aimed at even younger kids. Everything about it ages the characters down to a younger sounding age; its aimed at more like 6-9 year olds. At least at the beginning of the show, I haven't gone through that much of it.


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                  • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                    Dubs, always. Why the hell would I want to experience a visual medium...by reading about it? If I wanted to read a story, I'd read a novel.
                    My parents were big foreign film buffs so growing up I was always watching movies that with subtitles. As such watching the action and reading the words on the bottom of the screen, whether in a movie or anime or video games has never really been an issue for me.

                    That said though, my only real issue with dubbing is that I've noticed that dubs tend to be more willing to change the dialogue, or even just insert entirely new dialogue into shows. I was at a friend's house a couple of days ago and he and his wife were watching Kobayashi's Dragon Maid and I noticed there were several places where they just made up new dialogue and inserted it into the show. While subs frequently localize jokes or references they tend insert original dialogue into shows rather less often.

                    Of course, whether or not that matters only depends on if you want a more "authentic" experience or if you prefer an experience more tailored to you and your culture.

                    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                    Now I want you to consider what that means... There are German Nazi's who try to invade the city of London, while everybody communicates in Japanese!
                    I am reminded of the Fate Apocrypha light novel which takes place in Romania. Two characters, Jeanne d'Arc and Sieg (a homunculous created in Romania) are both supposedly speaking to one another in Romanian, but then they begin trying to figure out which kind of formal, Japanese pronouns to use for one another because the dialogue in the story is actually written in Japanese. Of course, English media which takes place in other countries where people are speaking foreign languages often runs into very similar issues where characters are presented as saying things that would only make sense if they were speaking English, not their own native language they're supposed to be speaking.

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                    • Originally posted by ElvesofZion View Post
                      It's different though, especially with Shonen content. Take Naruto for example, the Japanese voice work is aimed at 12-15 year old Japanese boys; yes it is slangy and not the way adults speak, but the English dub is aimed at even younger kids. Everything about it ages the characters down to a younger sounding age; its aimed at more like 6-9 year olds. At least at the beginning of the show, I haven't gone through that much of it.
                      I mean, there's always the 4Kids dub of One Piece where they edited episodes, visuals, dialogue and cut so much content in order to aim it at 6 year olds it's almost like an entirely new show.

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                      • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                        Of course, English media which takes place in other countries where people are speaking foreign languages often runs into very similar issues where characters are presented as saying things that would only make sense if they were speaking English, not their own native language they're supposed to be speaking.
                        A former co-worker of mine (who is fluent in Japanese), was watching The Wolverine on a flight to Japan and the whole scene at the hotel with the Japanese versus English just made absolutley no sense. Eventually he realized that one of the characters would have been in Japanese even in the original English version but he was very confused.


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                        • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                          Dubs, always. Why the hell would I want to experience a visual medium ... by reading about it? If I wanted to read a story, I'd read a novel.
                          It definitely gets easier to watch subtitles with more practice, but I prefer to be able to rewind subtitled shows, because sometimes you really do miss something and want to run it back.

                          Originally posted by Second Chances View Post
                          Also, the Japanese title songs are often way more balling than the English.

                          ... if the dubbing is poorly done and out of sync with the character's mouth moving or sound effects, it takes me straight out of the show.

                          ... The ony English intros I've found that I prefer over Japanese are Dragonball Z and Pokemon.
                          It's funny you say that, because something that takes me right out of Dragonball Super is the later version of the intro music when the singer says "I can't get no satisfaction" in English. It's like your mom awkwardly trying to say something "cool." I'm not saying the DB Super intros are particularly "balling" in the first place, and I realize the whole show is openly corny, which is a lot of the fun of it, but come on, man. :P

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                          • In my experience, subtitles are more likely to be accurate, because they're not having to match up with lip movements. (OTOH, I've also noticed that screen captions have a tendency to truncate phrases in order to keep it short enough to be read quickly; so it's not like either approach is perfect.)


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                            • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                              In my experience, subtitles are more likely to be accurate, because they're not having to match up with lip movements. (OTOH, I've also noticed that screen captions have a tendency to truncate phrases in order to keep it short enough to be read quickly; so it's not like either approach is perfect.)
                              It's extremely frustrating when they don't leave the captions on the screen long enough for me to read them, and it happens all too often in some shows.

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                              • Episode 1 of Season 3 of Overlord:

                                Albedo's personal mount (the Bicorn) refuses to let pure maidens ride upon it. Despite being a succubus, she's spent nearly all her time guarding the throne room and never had time to seduce men as an NPC of Yggdrasil.

                                She decides to resolve this problem by attempting to rape Ainz, who is a skeleton!
                                Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-15-2018, 02:30 AM.

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