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  • Originally posted by Mangle77 View Post
    I found another one. In this case, is Spider-Man representative of the majority of Comic Book fans, in that he's an awkward teenager who is bullied at school, and has a hard time finding a girlfriend, then this happens:



    We nerds take enough crap from the mainstream people, and we're not recognized as a minority; the last thing we need is to have our one escape from reality forcibly altered to meet some artificial diversity quota. Comics are fairly diverse already, and forcing a bunch of poorly written "affirmative action" characters on us isn't helping ANYONE.

    Ok, I'll stop beating the dead horse for awhile...
    Nerds aren't oppressed, and they're not any kind of minority. Anyone on the street knows who Thor is; videogames are the largest entertainment industry.


    Just call me Lex.

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    • I don't exactly see the problem with ragging on the Raimi movie's screwing up Spider-man's trademark wit by using a weak "being gay is a prejorative" joke. I'm pretty sure 616 Peter Parker would be pissed off that someone made a movie roughly based on him, and had him making that sort of joke.

      Nobody's calling for Peter to suddenly be gay. They're calling out a moment of writing the character poorly by having him make that joke.

      Also... pretty much every Spider-man fan I know is generally happy that Spider-man hasn't suffered the same poor editorial shit-storm most of Marvel has (even if I disagree with some of the stuff you've said about it). Miles is a well liked character. Spider Gwen is popular. The main line's extended Spider-characters (frequently women) go well. Part of that is Peter never really goes anywhere for long. Even Homecoming's massive diversity lifting of various side characters didn't rile up any significant fan ire.

      And I know you want to get off the dead horse here, but "nerds" aren't a white men only fan club. Plenty of our fellow nerds are the one's being pandered too because they're women, LGBTQ, and/or PoCs. Plenty of them agree with the criticisms of how poorly trying to increase diversity and representation in the big comics is going, but don't want the answer to be sliding back to only pandering to white men either. Bitching about not being recognized as a minority (which nerds aren't in the sociological sense, and the anti-nerd stigma is in steady decline in pop culture), while ignoring how much intersectional erasure of minority nerds is really problematic is pretty hypocritical. "White male nerds deserve their escapist fantasy, so other nerds need to go back to waiting for theirs," isn't a good look; especially if that fantasy includes getting to make jokes at the expense of minorities.
      Last edited by Heavy Arms; 09-08-2017, 04:33 AM.

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      • Yeah. Enjoying a hobby is very different from being gay or being African-American. Last time I checked there was no legislation aimed at preventing people who like comic books from being able to exercise their Constitutional rights. Or trying to put them in jail for their hobby or anything like that. And trying to make a comparison between the two is uhhh... yeah.

        *EDIT* That said, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a "gay joke" in the right circumstances and with the right audience. I have two gay friends who are constantly making wisecracks about being gay. But this particular joke wasn't terribly funny or witty even at the time - "The joke is that you're gay and it's funny because I'm implying that you're gay." Haha? I remember getting a painful smile at that joke when I first saw it. Like, "Really? That's where we're going?"
        Last edited by AnubisXy; 09-08-2017, 11:19 AM.

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        • Comic book fans are geeks, not nerds (though there is crossover between the groups). The guys who like to build their own PC's at home, are usually really intelligent, and tend to have poor fashion sense? Those would be nerds. Get you nomenclature right, people. And please, take the "poor white cis geek" rant somewhere else, you won't find a whole lot of sympathy for it here.


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          • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
            *EDIT* That said, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a "gay joke" in the right circumstances and with the right audience. I have two gay friends who are constantly making wisecracks about being gay. But this particular joke wasn't terribly funny or witty even at the time - "The joke is that you're gay and it's funny because I'm implying that you're gay." Haha? I remember getting a painful smile at that joke when I first saw it. Like, "Really? That's where we're going?"
            This depends on the construction of the joke.
            Brooklyn Nine-Nine is a great example of a show that does an excellent job of this - a great deal of the comedy revolves around Ray Holt being gay, but it doesn't denigrate him for being gay. His sexuality is an integral part of the humor, not the subject of it. That line in Spider Man was an example of the opposite.


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            • Also, can I raise some serious objection to being offended at the prospect of having minorities in your escapism? Like, fucking seriously? I'm so sorry you can't run away to a world where all the heroes are white, cis, and straight.


              Just call me Lex.

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              • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                This depends on the construction of the joke.
                Brooklyn Nine-Nine is a great example of a show that does an excellent job of this - a great deal of the comedy revolves around Ray Holt being gay, but it doesn't denigrate him for being gay. His sexuality is an integral part of the humor, not the subject of it. That line in Spider Man was an example of the opposite.
                Counter argument. That line in spiderman is a taunt, not a proper joke. Its purpose is to offend and enrage the target.

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                • Originally posted by Kammerer View Post

                  Counter argument. That line in spiderman is a taunt, not a proper joke. Its purpose is to offend and enrage the target.
                  I'm not sure "that offensive joke was supposed to be offensive!" is a great counter-argument. The line is homophobic no matter how you slice it.


                  Just call me Lex.

                  Female pronouns for me, please.

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                  • Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                    Counter argument. That line in spiderman is a taunt, not a proper joke. Its purpose is to offend and enrage the target.
                    Peter Parker is attempting to offend and enrage his wrestling opponent by insinuating that he is gay. We can tell from the context and tone of the scene that the audience is meant to find this scenario humorous. So no, it is not, by a strict definition of the term, a "joke", in that it does not follow the setup, reinforcement, punchline structure. But it is something that was written to make people laugh. We are being asked to laugh at a man being offended and enraged by being called gay.


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                    • A lot of Spider-man is like that. Depending on the writer you might get the whole flawed hero, but you sometimes just get the bullied person who is now the bully, but has 'socially acceptable' targets, since they're bad guys and all. Though I can't think of any gay or sexuality oriented insults, one would think the writers were sort of above it. Maybe with Shocker?



                      Some aspects of 'Karmic justice,' like where Flash Thompson, his former bully, went off to war and came back disabled and alcoholic always struck me as distastefully handled.

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                      • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        Spider Gwen is popular.
                        Incidentally this is a miracle honestly, i wanna like Spider Gwen but the pacing is awful is marvel problem in a microcosm. There is no breathing room, there is a frantic plotline (event) after frantic plotline (event).

                        I dont even know what they are going for. Okay Gwen still have her secret identity from her love ones cliche, okay trite but serviceable but them they never do anything with it. Her band, the mary janes, fall through the wayside from all the attention the comic give it and Gwen┬┤s life when it isnt introducing another alternative version of popular 616 character or yet another shocking revelation.

                        Might as well have dropped her secret identity angle and do something new if there werent even gonna do the cliche. It seems the comic was made via checklist.

                        She got a career (but it wont be explored) check! Secret identity she hides from love one (but said love ones wont be explored) check! She got angts (but never gonna follow that), CHECK!

                        I just see wasted potential and it piss me off because Gwen is very likeable which is saying something because she was one of the worst characters marvel (her 616-version) next to Jean Grey.
                        Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 09-08-2017, 11:05 PM.

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                        • Originally posted by nofather View Post
                          like where Flash Thompson, his former bully, went off to war and came back disabled and alcoholic always struck me as distastefully handled.
                          And then battled to beat not only his alcoholism, but become one of the greatest heroes in the Marvel Universe.


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                          • I never quite understood why the presence of more varied peoples and characters in my fantasy worlds would be an imposition, anyway. All the worlds I personally create tend to address things like the status of homosexuality or ethnic minorities (relative to the setting, that is - it rarely maps 1:1, to say the least) or transpeople just because it makes for a deeper world, a more immersive experience, and can help process and parse the real world I live in in a way that is comfortable and controlled. For instance, I gave the status of transpeople some real thought for the orcs in one of my settings, because the religion of the dominant Orcish culture in the area my PCs are roaming around in has a god/dess that logically might impact on how those tribes perceive gender, its fluidity/solidity, and the social roles of men, women, and those who don't quite fit that linear demarcation.

                            Wanna know what my cis, white, extremely nerdy, mostly straight players reaction was when they encountered a transman in a position of influence in the religious hierarchy? 'Neat, I never thought of that being a thing, but it makes sense'. Not 'HOW DARE YOU FORCE YOUR AFFIRMATIVE ACTION ON US' but rather another of those little moments of depth that they've actually started taking ranks in knowledge skills (in 3.5, no less, (yes, we're grogs)) to learn more of even when they don't need them - the single biggest applause a GM can get for their worldbuilding.

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                            • Originally posted by Fat Larry View Post
                              And then battled to beat not only his alcoholism, but become one of the greatest heroes in the Marvel Universe.
                              No one in the Marvel Universe would honestly consider him that, given his tendency to eat people, succumb to villainous demands, and occasionally just let the symbiote go crazy and kill. Most people in the MU simply don't trust him. For all that Spider-man is depicted as a flawed hero, Flash is treated as a failed one, and the reason is nothing more than because he bullied Peter Parker when they were kids.

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                              • Originally posted by nofather View Post
                                Some aspects of 'Karmic justice,' like where Flash Thompson, his former bully, went off to war and came back disabled and alcoholic always struck me as distastefully handled.
                                Was that how it went though? I mean i remember that the whole "peter vs flash" was buried before Gwen Stacy death. Then he became a supporting character for peter for many years and he went on the alcoholism storyline.

                                But then one more day happened and he lost his legs on Irak in the new continuity but i dont remember if the alcoholism was part of the new continuity.

                                Regardless i do think he is popular or at least Marvel think he is as he got the Blue Beetle treatment of being shove in everything for a while.

                                I think they were aiming to make themselves a edgy Guy Gardner with the whole likeable but flawed Bro-hero.

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