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You Know What I Hate MK I

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  • Originally posted by Camilla View Post
    I know, but the fact that people are calling for censorship makes me roll my eyes.

    Whatever happened to voting with your wallet and "Don't Like It, Don't Buy It"?
    I think similar to actual voting people have decided that if a thousand others are purchasing something, it doesn't matter if they don't. Which is why we will always have things like release-day DLC, lootboxes, microtransactions, and Whale-oriented mobile games. And why people have things like entire YouTube channels and TV shows devoted to explaining their opinions and why people like to throw parades to advertise their affiliations.

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    • Originally posted by nofather View Post

      I think similar to actual voting people have decided that if a thousand others are purchasing something, it doesn't matter if they don't. Which is why we will always have things like release-day DLC, lootboxes, microtransactions, and Whale-oriented mobile games. And why people have things like entire YouTube channels and TV shows devoted to explaining their opinions and why people like to throw parades to advertise their affiliations.

      Fair point, I will concede to that.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Camilla View Post
        I hate when companies bow down to the demands of censorship from moral authoritarians, even if I don't like the company in question (and yes, it is censorship even if it's not the government doing it)

        This recent news from Polygon just re-affirms my belief that both sides suck and that the Alt-Right and the PC Left should both have a Coke and a smile and shut the fuck up.
        Question for you: Is there any way new White Wolf could have pleased you? Cause right now, it looks like you hated them for what they were doing, but when they acknowledged their mistake and promised to make changes, you hatevthem for “bowing to moral authoritarians.” How exactly were they supposed to improve in your eyes that wouldn’t have been “caving to the PC left?” It seems like you’re so concerned with your disdain for the left that you would prefer White Wolf continue to stay a course you were unhappy with yourself than take any positive action steps to change, simply because it would also please your imagined political enemies.
        Last edited by Charlaquin; 11-13-2018, 09:51 PM.


        Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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        • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
          Question for you: Is there any way new White Wolf could have pleased you? Cause right now, it looks like you hated them for what they were doing, but when they acknowledged their mistake and promised to make changes, you hatevthem for “bowing to moral authoritarians.” How exactly were they supposed to improve in your eyes that wouldn’t have been “caving to the PC left?” It seems like you’re so concerned with your disdain for the left that you would prefer White Wolf continue to stay a course you were unhappy with yourself than take any positive action steps to change, simply because it would also please your imagined political enemies.

          Guess I never thought of it like that.

          Eh, either way I have written off the new White Wolf since V5 came out, so I must ask myself why I should even care what they do at this point?

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          • Originally posted by Camilla View Post
            Guess I never thought of it like that.
            I figured. You’re a well-meaning individual with your heart in the right place. You’re just so consumed with maintaining a moderate stance, you don’t always think your anti-extremist sentiment through. I believe, if you let go of your knee-jerk anti-extremist reactions and thought through your political opinions a little more critically, you would find yourself much more closely aligned with the “PC left” than you think you are.

            Originally posted by Camilla View Post
            Eh, either way I have written off the new White Wolf since V5 came out, so I must ask myself why I should even care what they do at this point
            Because you like Vampire the Masquerade. You may not like the way the current IP holders have been taking it, but t the end of the day you are a fan, and you care about the future of the franchise.


            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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            • Originally posted by Camilla View Post


              I know, but the fact that people are calling for censorship makes me roll my eyes.

              Whatever happened to voting with your wallet and "Don't Like It, Don't Buy It"?
              Have African American people ever been wrong to complain about the existence of minstrel shows, and very emphatically want them to not be a thing that exists?

              Was simply not paying to attend the things themselves helpful in the face of the underlying issue of an audience existing for such art, being sold and reinforced in the narrative of black people as entertaining buffoons, that could lead back into actual consequences in the lives of actual black people?


              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
              https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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              • Editing a post repeatedly, because the post refuses to refresh fast enough to assure you that, yes indeed, you did just edit the dang thing.


                “Nobody is purely good or purely evil. Most of us are in-between. There are moths that explore the day and butterflies that play at night.”
                - Suzy Kassem, Rise Up and Salute The Sun
                (She/Her)

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                • I've made adjustments to be less hung up over things on my laptop, but I still hate how going a few pages deep into the goddamn Percy Jackson wiki of all things broke off my backlog in a certain tab.

                  That kind of thing has happened sometimes before, but it's usually fixed itself when the computer has been restarted. For whatever reason, that seems to have failed this time (although I'll keep checking a couple of times to see if it was a fluke).


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                  Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                    Have African American people ever been wrong to complain about the existence of minstrel shows, and very emphatically want them to not be a thing that exists?
                    As is common throughout most of humanity, I guess it all depends on whose ox is getting gored, doesn't it?

                    Let's change the target of the complaints and see if they seem as righteous.

                    "Have Christian people ever been wrong to complain about the existence of roleplaying games portraying the occult and alternate sexuality, and very emphatically want them to not be a thing that exists?"

                    "Have parental groups ever been wrong to complain about the existence of media depicting violence and sexuality, and very emphatically want them to not be a thing that exists?"

                    "Have people of the opposing political ideology ever been wrong to complain about the existence of your political ideology, and very emphatically want it to not be a thing that exists?"

                    "Have people in group A ever been wrong to complain about the existence of group B, and very emphatically want them to not be a thing that exists?"

                    I would posit that we either have freedom of expression (and association), or we don't. Whatever happened to "I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it"? Some people find our hobby, and the WoD in particular, a cesspit of depravity and evil. And if they had their way, it would be banned. Should any publisher give in to such desires because a group finds what we do offensive? Being offended should not be a license to shut down expression.

                    There will always be people that are offended by something that you are doing. Judging by history, there are people who are offended merely by the fact that you or I even draw breath. Should we give in to their sense of offense?

                    So if you want to keep doing the things that you are doing, whatever they may be, then you will need to keep the freedom to do so. But that freedom must be applicable to all, even those that you find deplorable, or else it is not freedom, just a privilege granted to certain groups. Much like Animal Farm where some were more equal than others.

                    Voting with your wallet is the most civilized of choices. To do otherwise is to devolve into tribalism and a contest to see who can screech they are offended the loudest in order to put their fingers in their ears and close their eyes lest they hear or see something they don't like.

                    Reminds me of the quote of "You will know who rules you by noticing who you are not allowed to criticize".

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Azenogoth View Post

                      As is common throughout most of humanity, I guess it all depends on whose ox is getting gored, doesn't it?
                      It does; different people have different levels of power, and risk.

                      Originally posted by Azenogoth
                      "Have Christian people ever been wrong to complain about the existence of roleplaying games portraying the occult and alternate sexuality, and very emphatically want them to not be a thing that exists?"

                      "Have parental groups ever been wrong to complain about the existence of media depicting violence and sexuality, and very emphatically want them to not be a thing that exists?"

                      "Have people of the opposing political ideology ever been wrong to complain about the existence of your political ideology, and very emphatically want it to not be a thing that exists?"

                      "Have people in group A ever been wrong to complain about the existence of group B, and very emphatically want them to not be a thing that exists?"
                      Yep; none of those things have ever been parts of systems to oppress or murder people.

                      Originally posted by Azenogoth
                      I would posit that we either have freedom of expression (and association), or we don't.
                      I mean, that's technically correct, but doesn't really consider the context of what things are and are not being said; their intent and consequences.

                      Originally posted by Azenogoth
                      Whatever happened to "I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it"?
                      It takes on some different connotations where the people you're defending are the ones who are killing you.

                      Originally posted by Azenogoth
                      Voting with your wallet is the most civilized of choices. To do otherwise is to devolve into tribalism
                      Like, you're responding to a query about minstrel shows. How is paying to attend those not tribalistic?

                      Originally posted by Azenogoth
                      Reminds me of the quote of "You will know who rules you by noticing who you are not allowed to criticize".
                      Oh certainly; that's why the current president of the United States is a gay, black woman who recently enacted a policy of separating a lot of rich, old, white men from their golf clubs, which engendered no controversy whatsoever.


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                      Comment


                      • Anyway, subject of the thread:

                        A lot of things in my life are moving very quickly, and I have a lot of uncertainties, and I haven't had access to the positive outlet of RPG.Net for almost a week, and I am alternately stressed, drained and interminably bored.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Azenogoth View Post
                          Reminds me of the quote of "You will know who rules you by noticing who you are not allowed to criticize".
                          We had a discussion about this in a thread on the Vampire forum where Isator brought up a similar comment.

                          There are some things (like minstrel shows and blackface) which are grotesquely and maliciously offensive. They're things that were created with the intention in mind of directly oppressing and hurting people. I would argue that when faced with something that is grotesquely offensive, not only can you protest, but as a good citizen in a democracy you have a duty to protest and make it clear that an attack like that on your fellow citizens and human beings is simply unacceptable.

                          On the other hand there are many things that might be offensive or hurtful but aren't grotesquely so and which weren't designed with the purpose of specifically oppressing and hurting anyone. In that case, I think it's better to vote with your wallet.

                          So when you're dealing with something, which may have elements that you find displeasing, then by all means don't watch it, don't buy it. But when you're faced with something that is grotesquely offensive and degrading then choosing to simply ignore it is a poor action to take in a democratic society. When people chose to maliciously attack other members of society using their speech, I would argue that every member of that society has a duty to respond.

                          As an aside, I don't think that what was in the Camarilla book was grotesquely offensive or degrading, so I feel that "don't like, don't buy" is the proper course of action in this case.
                          Last edited by AnubisXy; 11-15-2018, 07:49 PM.

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                          • What do people think is actually going on here if not “don’t like, don’t buy”? No one is demanding the government step in and stop White Wolf from putting certain things in print. No one is inciting a mass book burning of White Wolf products. No one is trying to take the book away from people who do like it. Literally, “don’t like, don’t buy” is what is happening here. We’re also expressing on the internet the reason we don’t like and are not buying. The decision to shake up White Wolf’s leadership is a financial one. A significant portion of their fandom has not been liking, and has not been buying their products. So they’re promising they’re going to make changes, in hopes they can make those people like and start buying again.


                            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                            • On an unrelated note, I hate freezing rain. We got a bunch of freezing rain this morning here in Roanoke and I don't like it one bit.

                              It's cold, icy, and makes the roads dangerous to drive on.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                                What do people think is actually going on here if not “don’t like, don’t buy”? No one is demanding the government step in and stop White Wolf from putting certain things in print. No one is inciting a mass book burning of White Wolf products. No one is trying to take the book away from people who do like it. Literally, “don’t like, don’t buy” is what is happening here. We’re also expressing on the internet the reason we don’t like and are not buying. The decision to shake up White Wolf’s leadership is a financial one. A significant portion of their fandom has not been liking, and has not been buying their products. So they’re promising they’re going to make changes, in hopes they can make those people like and start buying again.

                                We've moved past the "don't like, don't buy" stage to the point that not only is White Wolf basically dead as an independent company now but people may literally be going to prison over this. Which, hopefully everyone can agree that the latter is not a good development.

                                http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...32#post1267832
                                Last edited by AnubisXy; 11-16-2018, 03:53 PM.

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