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You Know What I Hate MK I

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  • Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    Say it with me: Zionism is not synonymous with current Israeli government policy.
    To be fair, Zionism is a driving factor behind why fundamentalist Israelis continue to build settlements in Palastinian territory and why the Israeli government has turned a blind eye to that, and continues to do so. Also, coupled with the idea of Zionism (that is, that Israel should be homeland for the Jewish people) come arguments over who should be considered Jewish and who shouldn't be. That's the core reason for why the Israeli government tricked black, African Jewish women into undergoing sterilization procedures, so that they wouldn't have children. This is because some of the most powerful and influential fundamentalist sects do not consider African Jews to be "real" Jews and they believe that Israel needs to be a homeland only for "real" Jewish people and in their minds, anyone who isn't a "real" Jew has no place in Israel.

    I'm very pro Jewish, but Zionism, as a driving force behind fundamentalist Jewish sects, and the influence that those fundamentalist sects have over the Israeli government, is one of big reasons for some of the more problematic actions that the Israeli government has engaged in or chosen to ignore.

    So I feel that Zionism can be problematic in the same way that Manifest Destiny was problematic in the Americas. Americans believed they had a divine mandate to all of the North American continent and that came at the expense of the people who were already living there or who weren't considered "real" Americans. You see some disturbingly similar things involving Zionism in Israel.

    *edit* Also worth remembering that Netanyahu recently invited the Jewish Home party (a Zionist group that wants to turn Israel into a homeland for the Jews and only the Jews) into Likud, as well as Otzma Yehudit, which is racist as all hell, and has been promoting more anti-Palastinian and pro-Zionist policies since then. While Zionism may not be an official plank of the current Israeli government, it's still an unstated one.
    Last edited by AnubisXy; 04-07-2019, 11:34 PM.

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    • I'm not in a terribly generous mood right now. A friend of mine who lives in Israel had her nose broken the other week when she went to pray at the Wall. And the police response was lovely. "Well, you knew a woman going to pray was going to make those fundamentalist zealots mad but you chose to do it anyway. Really, you're the one at fault and your lucky all they did was break your nose, so maybe you should think twice before trying to pray there again because next time it might be worse." And, of course, in spite of it being very clear who attacked just and having it on video the police refused to arrest the guy or prosecute him. That had him offer a clearly insincere, half-assed apology and left it at that.

      So fuck religious fundamentalism, it's terrible. But even worse is when government agents, whether politicians or police officers or whatever, use it as an excuse to hurt, intimidate and oppress people.

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      • The problem is, that isn't fair, because it's conflating all of Zionism with the worst and most radical forms of it. The unifying fundamental tenets of Zionism don't justify the settlements issue, racist things Israelis have done, or the inane ultra-Orthodox attempts to declare themselves the arbiters of who is and isn't Jewish.

        Someone that calls themself a Zionist, doesn't mean they're doing things for Zionist reasons. The vast majority of Zionists think the Neo-Zionist alliance (aka Likud + the ultra religious groups working with them, similar to the Neo-Conservative alliance in the US) are betraying Zionist ideals for political power.

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        • I am disgusted by what they did to your friend and hate the intra-Judaic racism i saw in Israel when I was there, but I don't think Zionism alone is the problem. Theodor Hertzl was a believer in democracy and religious freedom and specifically said he wanted to live alongside the Arabs and other groups already in British Palestine.
          Last edited by Master Aquatosic; 04-09-2019, 02:42 PM.


          A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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          • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
            The problem is, that isn't fair, because it's conflating all of Zionism with the worst and most radical forms of it. The unifying fundamental tenets of Zionism don't justify the settlements issue, racist things Israelis have done, or the inane ultra-Orthodox attempts to declare themselves the arbiters of who is and isn't Jewish.

            Someone that calls themself a Zionist, doesn't mean they're doing things for Zionist reasons. The vast majority of Zionists think the Neo-Zionist alliance (aka Likud + the ultra religious groups working with them, similar to the Neo-Conservative alliance in the US) are betraying Zionist ideals for political power.
            Which is true. Zionism, in and of itself, isn't good or bad. At the same time, however, there are a lot of problems in Israel that are caused by fundamentalist groups who do things because they believe that the Jewish people have a divine mandate to the Israel and unfortunately in their minds, that means other people have no place there.

            So when someone asks, "Why do Israelis (primarily religious fundamentalists) continue to build settlements in Palestinian territory, even though they know that a peaceful solution with Palestinians is impossible as long as they keep building settlements. And further, why does the Israeli government not only refuse to condemn this but even encourage it?" the answer is going to involve Zionism. And this is an issue. Heck, just last week Netanyahu declared that there are no such thing as illegal settlements and that any settlement is a part of Israel now and forever. Like it or not (and I definitely don't) that is official government policy of Israel.

            So simply believing in Zionism, simply in and of itself, is neither good nor bad, but the idea has also been a driving force behind some of the more questionable activities that the Israeli government and the Israeli people have engaged in over the years.

            So I'd say if you were looking to get an understanding on the various decisions the Israeli government has made over the decades, you'd absolutely have to take the idea of Zionism into account. And even today it's still a powerful, driving force behind many of the decisions that the government makes. And that's where the problem is - the idea itself is fine, but when it becomes government policy (even unstated), it's going to be problematic in a way that it wouldn't be, if it were just kept to more of a personal belief. And I'd argue that's true of most religious beliefs and policies in general, regardless of the religion and regardless of the national government that decides to take that belief and turn it into official government policy.

            But I think this is getting a little off topic. Suffice it to say, I hate religious fundamentalism, I think it encourages people to dismiss those who don't believe the same thing they do, or even look at them as non-people. Fuck that noise.

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            • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
              At the same time, however, there are a lot of problems in Israel that are caused by fundamentalist groups who do things because they believe that the Jewish people have a divine mandate to the Israel and unfortunately in their minds, that means other people have no place there.
              Except you can say, "there are a lot of problems in Israel that are caused by fundamentalist groups who do things because they believe that other people have no place there."

              And it's actually more accurate to the problem. As your second post said, "fuck religious fundamentalism," and putting everything in Israel on Jewish fundamentalists is ridiculous. It ignores the influence of Christian fundamentalists in the West (esp. on US politics and approach to foreign affairs in the region), the influence of Islamic fundamentalists (who are happy to stoke things in their own ways, and secular fundamentalists because those are a problem on multiple sides as well (even if we normally use words like ethno-nationalists for them).

              the answer is going to involve Zionism.
              Kinda? I mean I can answer it without involving Zionism, though it's a fairly shallow explanation but you could write a 10 volume series of text books and still not fully explain this stuff:

              A huge amount of the power struggle between the Israelis and Palestinians comes from first the Ottoman, and then the British and then the UN, using land ownership as a deciding factor on who gets to control what parts of the territory. Even today, when there are attempts to create a Palestinian state in the West Bank, there needs to be a redrawing of the map (since the original map was never intended to be final and has all sorts of problems) and that redrawing tries to displace as few people as possible: including Israeli settlers. The more the Israeli government 'fails' to stop settlement, the better the position the Israeli government has in the next attempts at negotiation: every settlement they allow is one they can at a minimum offer to displace as a 'concession' and ask the Palestinians to concede something else. Which of course pisses off the Palestinians because they see right through this... but the third parties generally don't do anything to stop it either. Finally there are also elements in both the Israeli government and Palestinian leadership who's political power is stronger the longer the conflict goes on. For them, the settlements are just a way to ensure the conflict continues, and they can use their existence to fear-monger votes or money or whatever for power.

              See? The answer doesn't actually need to get into Zionism at all. Focusing on Zionism as the ideology used to convince Israeli settlers to go along with all this, is basically the least effective way to stop it, because it gets the situation backwards. Zionism isn't the cause of why the current Israeli government is doing this, it's the sales pitch to the Israeli people on why they should go along with it.

              So I'd say if you were looking to get an understanding on the various decisions the Israeli government has made over the decades, you'd absolutely have to take the idea of Zionism into account.
              Sure, but you need to understand where it falls in all of this too.

              If you want to understand the decisions of the US government over the same time period, you have to take into account the White Evangelical Christian. But you also have to be able to sort the difference between attempts to create policies the enforce that group's beliefs on others, and policies that are just designed to get their votes. You're not going to have a complete understanding of things if just toss it all at the feet of WECs being a powerful political bloc in the US.

              And even today it's still a powerful, driving force behind many of the decisions that the government makes.
              And it's still a powerful driving force opposing many of those decisions at the same time (see Black Evangelicals in reference to previous comparison).

              But I think this is getting a little off topic. Suffice it to say, I hate religious fundamentalism, I think it encourages people to dismiss those who don't believe the same thing they do, or even look at them as non-people. Fuck that noise.
              Sure, just remember the secular Zionism is a thing too.

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              • This is getting a bit too far off topic.
                Last edited by AnubisXy; 04-08-2019, 04:54 PM.

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                • Less hate, more general being irked by how movies seem to either forget about things in their previous installments, or expect us to.

                  Take Captain America: Civil War.

                  Zemo had no way of knowing that in the immediate aftermath of his bombing, that Captain America wouldn't turn to Iron Man and say, "Hey, what if this guy who appears to be Bucky is under some kind of mind control, like Hawkeye was with Loki in Avengers? What if it was someone wearing a sophisticated mask, like Black Widow was wearing in Winter Soldier? Let's not forget that mind control and ludicrously effective disguises are both things," yet Zemo's plan almost certainly would have failed if he had.

                  That ocean scientist being treated like a crazy tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorist in Aquaman likewise feels less real for not countering the talking heads laughing at him by saying, "Hey, why do I sound like the crazy guy? How many alien invasions have colorful people in tights fought off, now? Didn't a witch fire a giant energy beam into space, only to get stopped by a black-ops team of colorful supervillains? Why is 'Atlantis might be real' a bridge too far, now?"

                  And so on.

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                  • That Crunchy roll failed to add that One Punch Man season 2 would only be available to EU subscribers.

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                    • When a lifting callus splits. That shit hurts and I know I could have prevented it if I just used some damn chalk in the gym and lotion at home 😠

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                      • That no one seems to even be surprised that the sitting president told immigration officers to break the law and lie to judges.

                        ​(To clarify, I'm not surprised either. But that none of this surprises me or seemingly anyone feels really bad.)
                        Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 04-11-2019, 03:02 PM.

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                        • avocado...because im fucking allergic to it.. and most fruits...because again, im fucking allergic to most fruits.



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                          • Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                            Less hate, more general being irked by how movies seem to either forget about things in their previous installments, or expect us to.

                            Take Captain America: Civil War.

                            Zemo had no way of knowing that in the immediate aftermath of his bombing, that Captain America wouldn't turn to Iron Man and say, "Hey, what if this guy who appears to be Bucky is under some kind of mind control, like Hawkeye was with Loki in Avengers? What if it was someone wearing a sophisticated mask, like Black Widow was wearing in Winter Soldier? Let's not forget that mind control and ludicrously effective disguises are both things," yet Zemo's plan almost certainly would have failed if he had.

                            That ocean scientist being treated like a crazy tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorist in Aquaman likewise feels less real for not countering the talking heads laughing at him by saying, "Hey, why do I sound like the crazy guy? How many alien invasions have colorful people in tights fought off, now? Didn't a witch fire a giant energy beam into space, only to get stopped by a black-ops team of colorful supervillains? Why is 'Atlantis might be real' a bridge too far, now?"

                            And so on.
                            Yea...I'm with you somewhat. While I still enjoy the movie(though I haven't seen Aquaman), it is weird how they seem to forget things like that... when it's convenient for the plot I suppose.


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                            • I general low key hatred of horrible things people do that are illegal, condemned as evil acts, and so on by general society, continue because we as a society refuse to change the way we enforce the law to actually get justice, is currently in high ragey frustration because there's jack all I can do as a solo individual.

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                              • .................
                                Last edited by AzraelFirestorm; 04-22-2019, 07:46 PM.


                                “Nobody is purely good or purely evil. Most of us are in-between. There are moths that explore the day and butterflies that play at night.”
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