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  • Originally posted by nofather View Post

    It's not part of how they're built, no. They occasionally have special events where certain officers will engage with the community, but they're mostly designed as a separate force. Not designed to be alienated, but that's how it turns out when you operate as a separate entity with your only contact with the community being one-sided and immune to criticism.
    How is the police designed as a separate force and how would one prevent this from happening with "community policing"?
    Furthermore, there is also the question of how a police force that is centered entirely around a community would interact with state and national authorities.

    Also, in regards to your earlier comment about arming police with military weaponry, would you not need to arm community police with that very same weaponry to deal with the often very well armed gangs?

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    • Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
      How is the police designed as a separate force and how would one prevent this from happening with "community policing"?
      Immunity to prosecution is a big step, but, again, looking at the community as a source of arrests, and having number of arrests be a qualifier of how good a cop you are is also a problem. An easy example of how community policing could change what happens now is when police beat Kevin Penn. He was a store owner who subdued a robber and called the police, put his gun down when they came and was promptly punched because they thought he was the suspect, because the cops who responded had no contact with the community.

      Furthermore, there is also the question of how a police force that is centered entirely around a community would interact with state and national authorities.
      Since they would know the community better they would likely be able to interact with them on behalf of the community better.

      Also, in regards to your earlier comment about arming police with military weaponry, would you not need to arm community police with that very same weaponry to deal with the often very well armed gangs?
      There's a few issues with this concern that are at odds with modern policing. One, often the military weaponry are used against non-violent groups, like the appearance of LRAD devices to deafen protesters, this is actually a part of the issue with them operating as a separate entity than the community. Two, having bigger or the same guns doesn't mean victory over gangs, as things like the Cold War and 30 years of gang activity and many studies have shown, in fact it is closeness with a community that can help people come out to cops against gangs when they would otherwise be fearful of doing so. The solution to gangs isn't just having bigger weapons because gangs don't exist to have the biggest weapons. Three, being so separate and immune to prosecution, as well as encouraging the 'us vs community' mindset, hasn't spawned a 'lets get the bad guys' mindset. It's triggered more like bullying, with police going after low-hanging fruit, especially with economic concerns (like the cop in Second Chances' link mentions when they 'cracked down' on homeless recycling).

      No one's saying it will solve all crime, but not letting them get away with crimes should help with the job acting as the first stop for people who want to abuse authority. Engaging positively with the community should help things like seeing the community as enemies to be attacked. Having concerns about crime that are directed by the community and not wealth-inclined politicians can help things like focusing on certain groups solely to keep private prisons occupied. When the police are active parts of the community it may keep politicians from pretending like their opponents are 'soft on crime' because the community will be able to see results rather than soundbites. It may not be enough, but some change is better than none.
      Last edited by nofather; 06-09-2020, 05:00 PM.

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      • Originally posted by nofather View Post

        Immunity to prosecution is a big step, but, again, looking at the community as a source of arrests, and having number of arrests be a qualifier of how good a cop you are is also a problem. An easy example of how community policing could change what happens now is when police beat Kevin Penn. He was a store owner who subdued a robber and called the police, put his gun down when they came and was promptly punched because they thought he was the suspect, because the cops who responded had no contact with the community.



        Since they would know the community better they would likely be able to interact with them on behalf of the community better.



        There's a few issues with this concern that are at odds with modern policing. One, often the military weaponry are used against non-violent groups, like the appearance of LRAD devices to deafen protesters, this is actually a part of the issue with them operating as a separate entity than the community. Two, having bigger or the same guns doesn't mean victory over gangs, as things like the Cold War and 30 years of gang activity and many studies have shown, in fact it is closeness with a community that can help people come out to cops against gangs when they would otherwise be fearful of doing so. The solution to gangs isn't just having bigger weapons because gangs don't exist to have the biggest weapons. Three, being so separate and immune to prosecution, as well as encouraging the 'us vs community' mindset, hasn't spawned a 'lets get the bad guys' mindset. It's triggered more like bullying, with police going after low-hanging fruit, especially with economic concerns (like the cop in Second Chances' link mentions when they 'cracked down' on homeless recycling).

        No one's saying it will solve all crime, but not letting them get away with crimes should help with the job acting as the first stop for people who want to abuse authority. Engaging positively with the community should help things like seeing the community as enemies to be attacked. Having concerns about crime that are directed by the community and not wealth-inclined politicians can help things like focusing on certain groups solely to keep private prisons occupied. When the police are active parts of the community it may keep politicians from pretending like their opponents are 'soft on crime' because the community will be able to see results rather than soundbites. It may not be enough, but some change is better than none.
        I am aware that I will be rehashing certain points but only because I feel that they have been sufficiently answered.
        The first and most important one being, what, in your view, leads to police precincts being inherently alienated from the community they serve? When someone becomes a cop, presumably, they won't station him miles away from his home and, theoretically, his "community". Ergo, that person is community policing, no?
        People are, rightly, concerned about abuses of power. But, what exactly would prevent these new officers of the law from abusing it in community policing? The idea that people won't abuse power over the area they police because they know the people of said area is nice but it won't always translate into reality. For instance, wealth-inclined politicians will always have ways to redirect the attentions of those who enforce laws, regardless of how community focused they are in theory.
        Furthermore, it is simply not realistic to expect law officers to involve themselves only in situations where they know the perpretators. And what about when the community itself is divided as all communities tend to be. At which point do these new law enforces become suspicious then just as police officers are considered suspicious now? How little will a community need to be in order for everyone to trust everyone? Theoretically, the United States itself is a community.

        It just seems to me that community policing is just, well, policing, open to the same issues inherent to giving people power over others.

        And, of course, polices officers not being immune to prosecution is a no brainer. However, they aren't immune now. If you are referring to Police Unions protecting their own, wouldn't those very same Unions be formed then to protect the new law enforcement agents in community policing?

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        • Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
          I am aware that I will be rehashing certain points but only because I feel that they have been sufficiently answered.
          The first and most important one being, what, in your view, leads to police precincts being inherently alienated from the community they serve? When someone becomes a cop, presumably, they won't station him miles away from his home and, theoretically, his "community". Ergo, that person is community policing, no?
          No. Community policing involves police working in tandem with the community. Not just policing a community.

          People are, rightly, concerned about abuses of power. But, what exactly would prevent these new officers of the law from abusing it in community policing? The idea that people won't abuse power over the area they police because they know the people of said area is nice but it won't always translate into reality. For instance, wealth-inclined politicians will always have ways to redirect the attentions of those who enforce laws, regardless of how community focused they are in theory.
          Currently police accountability is very limited. It exists through community relations units (where a meeting is formed with something like a neighborhood association, and the police tell you what they're doing, which is a one way method of communication) and civilian review boards, which tend to focus on individual officers, and are given details after police have decided upon what to share with them, not really allowing for an in depth review. With community policing one of the goals is for the police, alongside the community, to both set policies for the police and community. This allows for both sides to have a more understandable operating procedure that can also place emphasis on what's important to the area. This all helps decide what's acceptable, including in terms of review boards.

          Furthermore, it is simply not realistic to expect law officers to involve themselves only in situations where they know the perpretators. And what about when the community itself is divided as all communities tend to be. At which point do these new law enforces become suspicious then just as police officers are considered suspicious now? How little will a community need to be in order for everyone to trust everyone? Theoretically, the United States itself is a community. It just seems to me that community policing is just, well, policing, open to the same issues inherent to giving people power over others.
          Just based on how you've been asking about it you seem to view it as 'policing the community,' which may be the block. It is more like 'the community is policing,' with trained police and the community working together to identify problems and solve them. And, again, that's not how it works currently. Currently police have little contact with the community that isn't involved in responding to specific crimes. Yes, it isn't realistic for someone to know everyone in the community. However it is realistic to not suspect everyone in the community of being a criminal.

          And, of course, polices officers not being immune to prosecution is a no brainer. However, they aren't immune now. If you are referring to Police Unions protecting their own, wouldn't those very same Unions be formed then to protect the new law enforcement agents in community policing?
          It's not just a matter of police unions protecting their own, the policies of police departments stymie real investigation, with things like Maryland's law enforcement officer bill of rates stating that they cannot being forced to make a statement about potential misconduct within ten days of the initial accusation. While police aren't immune to all prosecution, as government officials they are immune to most lawsuits, with internal investigations (and, again, the insular nature of police that keeps others including the community on the outside) they are prone to overlooking or excusing each others crimes. The current systems in place basically encourage them to be as violent as possible as soon as possible and not be held accountable for it afterward. This isn't a sudden realization some people are having. People, including police and politicians, have known about these issues for decades now.
          Last edited by nofather; 06-09-2020, 07:44 PM.

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          • The demands of Seattle’s new Free Zone have been issued, and are incredibly heartening to read: https://medium.com/@seattleblmanon3/...e-ddaee51d3e47


            Remi. she/her. game designer.

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            • After more than thirty years of serving as pro-police propaganda, after season after season of migrating to police departments in need of image rehabilitation for their use of excessive force, COPS is finally canceled.

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              • Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                After more than thirty years of serving as pro-police propaganda, after season after season of migrating to police departments in need of image rehabilitation for their use of excessive force, COPS is finally canceled.
                I'm going to miss that show so much


                You've been playing around the magic that is black
                But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

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                • Boston's statue of a genocidal slaver who hunted humans for sport, seems to have been decapitated last night. How 'bout that.

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                  • My game got added to the Bundle for Racial Justice and Equality, and then was downloaded almost 800 times in one day. Exciting!


                    Remi. she/her. game designer.

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                    • Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
                      My game got added to the Bundle for Racial Justice and Equality, and then was downloaded almost 800 times in one day. Exciting!
                      That’s awesome!


                      Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                      • I never thought I would see a real life Lord of the Flies unfold in my lifetime but here we are.


                        You've been playing around the magic that is black
                        But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

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                        • Originally posted by Dwight View Post
                          I never thought I would see a real life Lord of the Flies unfold in my lifetime but here we are.
                          That already happened in 1965.

                          If you ask me, the author was far too cynical.
                          Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 06-11-2020, 01:27 AM.

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                          • Louisville just banned no-knock warrants.

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                            • I’ve been listening to Polygondwanaland on repeat for like four days now. Flawless album.


                              Remi. she/her. game designer.

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                              • I love the new version of Microsoft Edge.

                                Especially the browser history.

                                We've been on quite a journey together, the Edge browser history and I. It's been like a little caterpillar; compelling in its own right, but this little stubby, spiny thing crawling around in my soul, eating as it goes. I've given a lot to it, and sometimes it's burrowed its way a bit too deep, but it's always spun me a bit of gossamer in return.

                                But now it's emerged from the cocoon, spreading those wings, finally able to fly off to unbounded vistas and carry me along with it.

                                My God, it's beautiful.


                                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                                Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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