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  • Originally posted by atamajakki View Post

    “Personally, for me, this person is sexy,” is a direct quote from /her/ in the article.
    And so is "“This is all to show that [much like in our modern world], hypersexualization in advertisements is just terrible,” Redesiuk continued. “It was a conscious choice on our end to show that in this world — a world where you are a cyberpunk, a person fighting against corporations. That [advertisement] is what you’re fighting against.”

    Finding the person being hypersexualized sexy does not mean you are in favor of her hypersexualization.

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    • Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
      And so is "“This is all to show that [much like in our modern world], hypersexualization in advertisements is just terrible,” Redesiuk continued. “It was a conscious choice on our end to show that in this world — a world where you are a cyberpunk, a person fighting against corporations. That [advertisement] is what you’re fighting against.”
      Hence the confusion Remi was noting.

      Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
      Finding the person being hypersexualized sexy does not mean you are in favor of her hypersexualization.
      No, but, “I think is sexy!” is not a good defense of content that is ostensibly meant as a critique of hypersexualization.


      Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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      • Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
        Finding the person being hypersexualized sexy does not mean you are in favor of her hypersexualization.
        That's not the issue though.

        Because as of right now, we ONLY have the artists' word that that's the intent of the ad:

        Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

        2. This is the ONLY confirmed depiction of trans-people within the game. It's not via an NPC or one of V's companions, it's not through playing a quest or encounter that shows a trans NPC reacting to the ad, and not even a demonstration of V getting cosmetic augmentations and showing them switching out their organs to a different gender. So for this to be the first in-game evidence of transpeople...is not good.

        It's still not good even if we take out the problematic context surrounding it: that despite CDPR's declaration that CP2077 will explore transhumanist themes, the first real in-game example...is in a screenshot used in an advertisement for GPUs. Which taken on its own, seems like CDPR doesn't consider the transhumanist themes to be a priority.

        3. Related to the above, we only have CDPR's word that things are totally not as offensive in the final game when everything is in its proper context. And, well, talk is cheap, and we won't know for sure if they meant it or are just trying to save face, and buy time until the game launches.

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        • Of course that’s the intent of the ad. From the moment I saw it I knew it was meant as an example of shitty things corporations do in the setting. The bigger issue is that the ad doesn’t exist in a vacuum. The game Cyberpunk 2077 exists in the context of a real world where the only media representation trans people (and especially trans women) get is fetishistic, exoticized, and played for shock value. And as the artist rightly points out, the cyberpunk genre is rife for exploration of trans themes, what with its heavy emphasis on body modification and identity. Yet, we have seen absolutely no evidence of those themes being explored in this game at all, and the first hint that we get of trans people existing in the game world happens to be fetishistic, exoticized, and played for shock value. Who’da fuckin’ thunk it.


          Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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          • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
            Hence the confusion Remi was noting.

            No, but, “I think is sexy!” is not a good defense of content that is ostensibly meant as a critique of hypersexualization.
            It seemed like an awkward self defense on what is a touchy subject. She was having her feet held to the fire and wanted to make sure it didn't come across like she thought of the body in question as being a joke or disgusting.

            Ultimately, the art director wasn't connecting the model's beauty with her objectification. At most, she was saying that "There are a lot of trans people in 2077 and they are beautiful. But corporations have oversexualized this beauty in order to sell products. This is bad and you will fight against it."






            Comment


            • Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
              It seemed like an awkward self defense on what is a touchy subject. She was having her feet held to the fire and wanted to make sure it didn't come across like she thought of the body in question as being a joke or disgusting.
              I don’t much care what she thinks. I care about the impact her art has.

              Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
              Ultimately, the art director wasn't connecting the model's beauty with her objectification. At most, she was saying that "There are a lot of trans people in 2077 and they are beautiful. But corporations have oversexualized this beauty in order to sell products. This is bad and you will fight against it.”
              Which is exactly what I already assumed the intent behind the ad was before she said anything about it. The problem isn’t that anyone thought the message was meant to support objectification. The problem is, we haven’t seen any of these trans people who allegedly exist in 2077. This ad is the first hint of any kind of trans representation in the game, and what do you know, it’s objectifying and gross. Just like most media representation of trans people in real life.

              This would be a very different story if there had been any indication prior to this ad that the game would feature trans characters and deal with themes of sexual identity in any way. If we had seen trans options in a character creation screen, if we had seen trans-coded NPCs, if they had consulted with the trans community for advice on exploring trans themes respectfully, or better yet actually hired trans writers and artists. If there was any sense at all that CDPR was making an effort to treat this sensitive subject with due respect, then I would be inclined to view this ad as one small part of a larger theme of trans identity in a hyper-corporatized dystopian future. But we have none of that. What we have is a game with zero visible trans representation outside of a single objectifying ad, coming from a company whose track record of dealing with trans folk consists of a single tasteless joke on twitter, a non-apology, and a statement of intent to avoid politically charged discourse.


              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                The problem isn’t that anyone thought the message was meant to support objectification.
                And yet that is all that I have been arguing against. Everything else you stated I do not contest or, in fact, even have an opinion on.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
                  And yet that is all that I have been arguing against. Everything else you stated I do not contest or, in fact, even have an opinion on.
                  So you’re defending something no one is attacking?


                  Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                    So you’re defending something no one is attacking?
                    "“It’s intentionally objectification!” and “I think it’s sexy!” cannot both be virtues, like the art director says. "

                    This is what Remi said and what I originally replied to. Reading this, my first impression was that she was claiming that the art director said that the objectification of the model was a virtue which is incorrect and thus I argued against it.
                    If, instead, Remi meant that you cannot condemn objectification as bad while saying that it is sexy, then my reply at the top of this page applies. The art director never compliments the ad itself, only the trans depicted in it.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
                      "“It’s intentionally objectification!” and “I think it’s sexy!” cannot both be virtues, like the art director says.
                      The art director did claim that she thinks the person is sexy, and she said that the ad was supposed to be an example of how corporations in 2077 objectify people, which is what you fight against as the protagonist. Something in there isn’t tracking. If we take at face value the claim that it’s an example of what you’re fighting against, then saying you think it’s sexy is not a good look. At best it makes her come off like a chaser.

                      Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
                      This is what Remi said and what I originally replied to. Reading this, my first impression was that she was claiming that the art director said that the objectification of the model was a virtue which is incorrect and thus I argued against it.
                      If, instead, Remi meant that you cannot condemn objectification as bad while saying that it is sexy, then my reply at the top of this page applies. The art director never compliments the ad itself, only the trans depicted in it.
                      The trans woman, first of all, not “the trans.” Let’s not remove the personhood from the language we use to describe trans people, hm?

                      So, your argument is that the art director was trying to say that the woman in the ad is sexy, but the way she is depicted in the ad is not? I don’t think that’s clear from her messaging. And, more importantly, if that’s what she’s trying to say, she’s fundamentally misunderstanding why the ad is an issue. If that’s the case, she’s the one defending something that isn’t under attack, and you’re... what, defending her right to do so?


                      Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                        The art director did claim that she thinks the person is sexy, and she said that the ad was supposed to be an example of how corporations in 2077 objectify people, which is what you fight against as the protagonist. Something in there isn’t tracking. If we take at face value the claim that it’s an example of what you’re fighting against, then saying you think it’s sexy is not a good look. At best it makes her come off like a chaser.


                        The trans woman, first of all, not “the trans.” Let’s not remove the personhood from the language we use to describe trans people, hm?

                        So, your argument is that the art director was trying to say that the woman in the ad is sexy, but the way she is depicted in the ad is not? I don’t think that’s clear from her messaging. And, more importantly, if that’s what she’s trying to say, she’s fundamentally misunderstanding why the ad is an issue. If that’s the case, she’s the one defending something that isn’t under attack, and you’re... what, defending her right to do so?
                        Hardly not under attack considering that the post I originally responded to was a comment on the supposed connection between the "this model is sexy" comment and the objectifying nature of the ad as if one stemmed from the other.
                        As I stated before, the need that the art director felt to reaffirm that she wasn't making light of the gender non-conforming nature of the model portrayed by calling her sexy was most likely due to not wanting the matter to blow out of proportion in social media. As it is, what she said was:

                        “Personally, for me, this person is sexy,” Redesiuk said. “I like how this person looks."

                        She speaks in general terms here, she doesn't say "I like how this person looks here, in this ad." She further reaffirms this by claiming that the ad itself is exploitative and part of the corruption inherent to these cyberpunk corporations.
                        In fact, I wouldn't say that she is defending anything so much as clarifying that if you feel disgusted by the ad, that is the point.










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                        • Just bought the Mana Collection today from the Nintendo E-Shop.

                          Time to play Trials of Mana (legally) for the first time!

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                          • Has anyone played Age of Wonders: Planetfall, and liked it?

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                            • Got Jedi Fallen Order, played through as far as the game would let me while it was still downloading (basically the tutorial and first zone.) Liking it a lot so far. Comparisons to Dark Souls et al. have not been overstated, although the flow of combat is very different from your typical souls-like. It feels like you would expect fighting with a lightsaber to feel, very fluid, almost effortless strikes, without long wind-up or recovery periods, which makes combat far less methodical than I expect in this style of game. The holomap is straight out of Metroid Prime, complete with color-coded “doors” to mark pathways you can or can’t take with your current ability set. But, exploration doesn’t feel like a Metroidvania (so far) either. Much more akin to Uncharted, or the newest God of War - very cinematic, very linear, though it does seem like they’ve laid the groundwork for some of that open, looping map stuff as my toolset expands. Not sure yet how I feel about the story, as I am still at the beginning. What I have seen of it so far is about what I’ve come to expect of a Star Wars story - a mediocre script, competently acted, and beautifully depicted. I wish more time had been spent establishing these characters and their motivations, but let’s be honest, I’m here for the gameplay first.
                              Last edited by Charlaquin; 11-16-2019, 02:32 AM.


                              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                              • Yeah, I was watching my brother play it. It reminded me of something like a mix of Prince of Persia and Sekiro (basically more fast paced Dark Souls). Seemed pretty cool. I'm hoping the story gets good. Apparently Chris Avellone is on the writing team, and I think his work in KotOR 2 is some of the best writing that's appeared in the Star Wars franchise. So if he was able to bring even a bit of that to Fallen Order I'd hope it would end up being pretty good.

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