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  • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
    I’m not really clear on how TLJ “snubbed half the fanbase.” A certain portion of the fanbase greatly disliked TLJ, and you know, fair enough. But it didn’t really “snub” them, any more than, I don’t know, the live-action remakes of the golden age movies “snub” me.
    I was using the term since I was responding to your use of it to describe the way TLJ fans were treated by this new film. I think TLJ fans were as "snubbed" by Rise of Skywalker as much as older fans were "snubbed" by The Last Jedi. So about equally. Regardless it seems that one group who of people who watched The Last Jedi were displeased with it, and many of the people who liked The Last Jedi and thought it was a great direction to take things probably won't like Rise of Skywalker since it's it's not following in the footsteps of TLJ.
    Last edited by AnubisXy; 12-21-2019, 01:39 AM.

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    • 1) Critics are destroying the movie. While The Last Jedi was very well received (because it was not just a good Star Wars film, but also a good movie) and it had a 91% score on Rotten Tomatoes, Rise of Skywalker plumbed to a 57%.

      2) It's a false myth that fans didn't like the Last Jedi. a LITTLE group of fans didn't like it. Thing is, they were very vocal and active on the social media.


      https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/disney...-the-last-jedi

      When it comes to the film's reception, different sources are telling different stories. On Rotten Tomatoes, the popular film review aggregator site holds an impressive 93 percent "Fresh" rating among critics, meaning the majority of professional reviewers liked the film. In contrast, the audience reviews on the site are only 56 percent, which could lead you to believe that almost half of viewers didn't care for the film. That isn't the whole story, though. Rotten Tomatoes' user ratings are open to any viewer of the film, but not every viewer is going to log on and rate what they just saw. It's also possible for viewers to log in under multiple names and issue multiple ratings in an effort to drive a film's score down. In fact, one particular Facebook account claimed to have done this, using bots to keep turning in negative ratings of the film and lower its score. So, while some viewers certainly walked away from The Last Jedi disappointed by the film, it's important to note that Rotten Tomatoes' viewer rating system isn't exactly an ironclad source.
      To prove that, we have the film's CinemaScore grade, which currently sits at an "A," just like The Force Awakens earned two years ago. CinemaScore does not rely on online comments. Rather, they send trained pollsters to 25 different cities and ask for reactions from audience members as soon as they leave the theater. Ultimately, the goal is to sample 400 to 600 people from five randomly selected theaters. It's a scientific method that CinemaScore has been perfecting for decades.
      So, on the one hand, we have online users that we can't see possibly duplicating themselves to generate a desired result, and on the other we have people offering their honest reaction to a market research company that's been around forever. This does not mean that everyone actually loved the movie apart from a few random trolls. It does, however, mean we maybe shouldn't label The Last Jedi as divisive as some want to think it is.
      https://www.boxofficepro.com/breakou...ars-last-jedi/

      Twitter sentiment for The Last Jedi averaged 7 positive for every negative tweet; compare that to The Force Awakens at 12 to 1 or Rogue One’s 13 to 1. This paints a picture similar to the Rotten Tomatoes fan results.
      IMDb user reviews were far kinder, providing a 7.9/10 average from 125,456 votes. The Force Awakens had a 8.1/10 from 706,388 votes, while Rogue One had a 7.8/10 from 384,669 votes. IMDb offers a comprehensive breakdown of those votes, and, on further analysis, The Last Jedi has a much higher percent of 1/10 reviews (5.4%) than either The Force Awakens or Rogue One (2.4% and 1.1% respectively).
      The scores dramatically improve when we get to the more scientific polling, such as those from comScore and CinemaScore, which poll actual moviegoers in real time as they exit the theater. As opposed to Rotten Tomatoes, Twitter, or IMDb, these polls gather responses from verified ticket buyers, and each reported strongly favorable reactions: an A rating from CinemaScore and 89 percent favorability from comScore’s PostTrak. These numbers are on par or identical to both The Force Awakens and Rogue One, completely contradicting the previously mentioned outlets. Detractors of the social media reviews and negative sentiment point to the fact that anyone can create a Rotten Tomatoes account, post on IMDb, or leave a Tweet.
      The truth and takeaway, as is almost always the case, lie in the middle of these two extremes. It’s a proven fact that people who have bad experiences with something are more likely to share it online than those who had a good experience. And when looking closer at the numbers, a relatively small number of people (likely in the range of 5,000–7,500) are the ones who are dragging down the overall numbers across all social media platforms—a drop in the bucket for a franchise the size of Star Wars.
      Last edited by Undead rabbit; 12-21-2019, 05:21 AM.

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      • I think Disney just wants to make as much money as possible. If they felt there was more money to be had by following Johnson's direction of Star Wars over Abram's then I believe without a doubt that's what they would have done. For whatever reason they decided bringing Abram's back was the preferable way of doing things.

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        • Abrams came back only because no one else wanted to do it. Seems the screaming Incels scared them all off

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          • Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
            The last Star Wars was probably the worst since the Phantom Menace.
            Can't understand what they had in their minds. A complete U turn from the Last Jedi, to satisfy the worst part of the fandom, selling again and again the same old story, the same old topoi, playing in a comfort zone that has more holes than the Titanic after it kissed the Iceberg.
            I wouldn't say it's the worst since Phantom Menace.

            It was enjoyable for the most part, and I'm glad I saw it. There's a few things I have issues with (which I won't get into just yet but the backpedaling from The Last Jedi is one of my main gripes), but there's a lot to like too. I'm still trying to process it all though... there is a lot going on.

            But, it's an entertaining movie and I had fun with it!


            Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
            I still think Phantom Menace was a fine movie though. Better than Attack of the Clones and honestly, maybe even Revenge of the Sith.
            Yea, I enjoy Phantom Menace much more than the other two prequels..


            Originally posted by vampire hunter D View Post
            Wasn't bad. Felt too overdramatic though.. And it did feel like they were trying too hard after the backlash from TLJ.

            Just tell the story you want. why give in to screaming incels?

            who wants to bet they like it though?
            I've already seen lots to suggest that quite a few people who hated The Last Jedi loved this one. It makes me sad they felt they had to address peoples issues with The Last Jedi and actively work to undo a lot from that movie.

            What really drives me crazy though, is the people suggesting that J.J. Abrams had some grand story that got "ruined" by Rian Johnson. If he had some grand story he wanted to tell, then why not write and direct all three movies? Why only do the one and then bring in other people to write and direct the other movies? It's pretty obvious to me, especially with some of things in this movie, they didn't have a grand story planned. I mean, J.J. only directed this one because they couldn't get anyone else...


            Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
            Bearing in mind I haven’t seen it yet, I think this is the story JJ Abrams wanted to tell. The problem is that the story that was being told changed course, and he opted to “correct” it rather than continue in the new direction. He used his shot at Star Wars to deliver a mystery box. Then the story got handed over to a different director, with a strong understanding of themes and no interest in mystery boxes. Then when a vocal portion of the community was upset about that, they gave it back to JJ to finish the story the way he originally imagined it. Bad move, in my opinion, but here we are.
            Yea, like I said, if he had some idea of where he wanted the story to go, why hand it off to other people? Makes no sense. Though I have no doubt this movie is based on some of the ideas he may have had for the overall story, which is why it feels like like two, maybe three, movies crammed into one.


            Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
            I think the poor critical reception of the sequel trilogy, contrasted with the success of the Mandalorian makes it abundantly clear that leaving the Skywalker saga behind is the right move. There is just too much baggage tied up in the story of the originals for expanding that story to be critically successful. It means too many different things too deeply to too many different people, anything they do is going to upset some portion of the fans. Better to tell stories in the Star Wars setting that are at only adjacent to the Skywalker story at best, lest you risk “ruining someone’s childhood.”
            Totally agree. I think they can do some Star Wars movies outside of the "Skywalker Saga" it'll be awesome. I believe it's what Rian Johnson really wanted to do, assuming he'll still want to. I've heard rumors he's still "in" for new Star Wars movies, but I won't blame him at all if he decides to step away.

            But anyway, yes, new Star Wars is what I'm looking forward to the most!


            Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
            I’m not really clear on how TLJ “snubbed half the fanbase.” A certain portion of the fanbase greatly disliked TLJ, and you know, fair enough. But it didn’t really “snub” them, any more than, I don’t know, the live-action remakes of the golden age movies “snub” me.
            Yea, I never got that either. Everything presented in The Last Jedi seemed like a logical extension of the story, especially where The Force Awakens left off. I've heard reason why people hated the movie, but they still make no sense to me...





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            • Originally posted by Mr Gone View Post
              Yea, I enjoy Phantom Menace much more than the other two prequels.
              I have really mixed feelings about Revenge of the Sith. The action is some of the best in the saga, it really nails the balance of drama and camp, and the story is really solid when the dialogue isn’t getting in the way. But some of the dialogue is so, so bad. Phantom Menace at its best is not as good as Revenge of the Sith at its best, but it’s better than Revenge of the Sith at its worst throughout, and while the tone is more childish, at least it is more consistent.
              Last edited by Charlaquin; 12-21-2019, 11:29 PM.


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              • Originally posted by Mr Gone View Post
                .What really drives me crazy though, is the people suggesting that J.J. Abrams had some grand story that got "ruined" by Rian Johnson. If he had some grand story he wanted to tell, then why not write and direct all three movies? Why only do the one and then bring in other people to write and direct the other movies? It's pretty obvious to me, especially with some of things in this movie, they didn't have a grand story planned. I mean, J.J. only directed this one because they couldn't get anyone else...
                Abram's and Johnson were all open about what happened. When Disney first set out to make the movies they decided they wanted to have each movie directed by a different director. When Abram's showed up to make the first movie there was no story, no outline, no anything. He was tasked with making a movie that would set up for two future films directed by different people with no idea what they were planning to do or where they would end up taking the story.

                Abram's gets slammed for the "mystery box" movie, but I think that was a legitimate decision given the circumstances. All he could do was introduce ideas in order to set up for the subsequent directors and hoped they'd use them. Unfortunately Johnson wasn't interested in using (or capable of using) whatAbram's had introduced which made sections of Episode 7 come off as pointless. Then Colin Trevorrow, who was originally supposed to direct Episode 9 stepped down. Disney then had the choice of asking Abram's, Johnson or someone entirely else to direct Episode 9, and they decided Abram's was the best choice.

                Honestly I think Johnson gets a bit of a bad wrap too. I do wish he had tried to do a better job of incorporating various material from Episode 7 into 8 to avoid having those elements in 7 feel extraneous, and there were some major parts of Episode 8 that I can't help but wonder what he was thinking when he introduced them, but for the most part he was working with what he had. In an interview he said he showed up on day 1 to work on Episode 8 and there was no story, no script, no outline, no nothing for him to work with besides whqt Abram's had done in Episode 7.

                I believe whatever problems there are with the movies rest primarily with Kathleen Kennedy and her decision to have a trilogy told by three different directors with no outline, plan or anything else. "Do what you want, make it up as you go, and hope the guy after you can wrangle it into a great, cohesive story," doesn't seem like it would be a recipe that would naturally lead to success. That kind of collaborative writing might be fun to do with friends but it just doesn't seem like a good plan for a multi-billion dollar franchise as beloved as Star Wars.

                While I do find Episodes 7, 8 and 9 to be fairly disappointing, I think they ended up as good as was reasonably possible given the very different visions the directors brought to the project and the complete lack of a plan or outline for them to work with.
                Last edited by AnubisXy; 12-22-2019, 09:47 AM.

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                • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                  I have really mixed feelings about Revenge of the Sith. The action is some of the best in the saga, it really nails the balance of drama and camp, and the story is really solid when the dialogue isn’t getting in the way. But some of the dialogue is so, so bad. Phantom Menace at its best is not as good as Revenge of the Sith at its best, but it’s better than Revenge of the Sith at its worst throughout, and while the tone is more childish, at least it is more consistent.
                  Yea, I think I'm with you on that. When Revenge is good, it's really good, but when it's bad it's sooo bad. Plus, I still think of the story doesn't work, and I still don't think I like how Anakin is basically just tricked into joining the dark side and turns on a dime. It's not horrible, just not quite what I expected I guess.

                  Plus, I like that Phantom Menace used more practical sets and effects over the almost entirely green screen that the other two were.


                  Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                  Abram's and Johnson were all open about what happened. When Disney first set out to make the movies they decided they wanted to have each movie directed by a different director. When Abram's showed up to make the first movie there was no story, no outline, no anything. He was tasked with making a movie that would set up for two future films directed by different people with no idea what they were planning to do or where they would end up taking the story.
                  Which is crazy to me. I mean, I can understand different directors...but why not map out an over arching story first, then bring in the directors. Or at the very least have the same screenwriter write all three movies.

                  Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                  Abram's gets slammed for the "mystery box" movie, but I think that was a legitimate decision given the circumstances. All he could do was introduce ideas in order to set up for the subsequent directors and hoped they'd use them. Unfortunately Johnson wasn't interested in using (or capable of using) what Abram's had introduced which made sections of Episode 7 come off as pointless.
                  Then Colin Trevorrow, who was originally supposed to direct Episode 9 stepped down. Disney then had the choice of asking Abram's, Johnson or someone entirely else to direct Episode 9, and they decided Abram's was the best choice.

                  Honestly I think Johnson gets a bit of a bad wrap too. I do wish he had tried to do a better job of incorporating various material from Episode 7 into 8 to avoid having those elements in 7 feel extraneous, and there were some major parts of Episode 8 that I can't help but wonder what he was thinking when he introduced them, but for the most part he was working with what he had. In an interview he said he showed up on day 1 to work on Episode 8 and there was no story, no script, no outline, no nothing for him to work with besides whqt Abram's had done in Episode 7.
                  While I don't mind the mystery box ideas from the first movie, I don't see it as Johnson being uninterested in them and him just doing whatever. I felt like he took things in a logical direction and his ideas made sense with the way the previous movie ended. Why was Luke on that island and why didn't he come help? If Rey showed up there and handed him his saber and he went "oh shit, we better go take down the whole first order, let me train you real quick" wouldn't have made sense, because then why didn't Luke just show up to help in the previous movie? Snoke being killed made sense to me to set up Kylo Ren as the ultimate villain of the trilogy. Rey being no one made perfect sense to me..because why would it matter if she was decided from someone special? Though, there was wiggle room in her origins, so whatever. Though, I'm not big into the direction they went with it in Rise of Skywalker.

                  But yea, it's crazy that no one gave Johnson any notes as where they thought the story would go.

                  Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                  I believe whatever problems there are with the movies rest primarily with Kathleen Kennedy and her decision to have a trilogy told by three different directors with no outline, plan or anything else. "Do what you want, make it up as you go, and hope the guy after you can wrangle it into a great, cohesive story," doesn't seem like it would be a recipe that would naturally lead to success.
                  It worked for George Lucas! Zing!! :P

                  I don't blame Kathleen Kennedy per se. I think she's done a pretty awesome job for the most part. I guess I don't understand why the Lucasfilm Story group didn't step in and ask for at least a base storyoutline... seems weird. But, I do think that Lucas made up a lot of Star Wars as he went...and maybe they were trying to replicate that? I dunno...

                  Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                  That kind of collaborative writing might be fun to do with friends but it just doesn't seem like a good plan for a multi-billion dollar franchise as beloved as Star Wars.
                  Agreed.

                  Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                  While I do find Episodes 7, 8 and 9 to be fairly disappointing, I think they ended up as good as was reasonably possible given the very different visions the directors brought to the project and the complete lack of a plan or outline for them to work with.
                  I agree as well. All things considered, the new movies are pretty good (The Last Jedi for me more than the others). I'm not sure Rise of Skywalker is a good ending to the new trilogy or the story as whole, but it has a lot to like and I'm looking forward to seeing it again...


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                  • The thing that gets me about the new trilogy isn’t the mystery boxes per say (I really enjoy the Force Awakens and thought Abrams did a good job). It’s that I distinctly recall at the time of 7’s release a number of interviews implying there was a long term plan, that everything across the multi-media universe would fit together, and that they were going to take some lessons from then newly acquired Marvel to make it work. It’s fine that it’s not, but don’t tell people there is a master plan when there’s absolutely now outline!


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                    • Originally posted by Mr Gone View Post
                      It worked for George Lucas! Zing!! :P
                      He did have an outline though, written by Joseph Campbell.


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                      • Originally posted by Second Chances View Post
                        The thing that gets me about the new trilogy isn’t the mystery boxes per say (I really enjoy the Force Awakens and thought Abrams did a good job). It’s that I distinctly recall at the time of 7’s release a number of interviews implying there was a long term plan, that everything across the multi-media universe would fit together, and that they were going to take some lessons from then newly acquired Marvel to make it work. It’s fine that it’s not, but don’t tell people there is a master plan when there’s absolutely now outline!
                        I don’t think either the “we have a grand master plan” or the “we had absolutely no guidance” stories are entirely true. More likely they’re both “true from a certain point of view.” Given how many elements of the trilogy are taken from Lucas’ story treatments, I think that was their idea of a “master plan.” Take the ideas they liked from George’s outline, throw out the stuff about the Wills that might upset prequel haters, let the directors put their own spin on it, and lay on a heavy dose of original trilogy nostalgia and Marvel Wit (tm).To the higher-ups, that seemed like an airtight plan. To the people who actually had to direct the darn things, it seemed like nothing to go on.
                        Last edited by Charlaquin; 12-22-2019, 04:05 PM.


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                        • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                          He did have an outline though, written by Joseph Campbell.
                          That's a good point!


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                          • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                            I don’t think either the “we have a grand master plan” or the “we had absolutely no guidance” stories are entirely true. More likely they’re both “true from a certain point of view.” Given how many elements of the trilogy are taken from Lucas’ story treatments, I think that was their idea of a “master plan.” Take the ideas they liked from George’s outline, throw out the stuff about the Wills that might upset prequel haters, let the directors put their own spin on it, and lay on a heavy dose of original trilogy nostalgia and Marvel Wit (tm).To the higher-ups, that seemed like an airtight plan. To the people who actually had to direct the darn things, it seemed like nothing to go on.
                            I remember hearing about some of Georges ideas for 7, 8 and 9 and I was like...weird. Sounded like he was gonna get super weird with it. I have no idea if I'd have lked it or not. My gut reaction was that I wouldn't..but now? I don't know...

                            But yea, what we got sounds pretty much like you describe..



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                            • Originally posted by Mr Gone View Post

                              I remember hearing about some of Georges ideas for 7, 8 and 9 and I was like...weird. Sounded like he was gonna get super weird with it. I have no idea if I'd have lked it or not. My gut reaction was that I wouldn't..but now? I don't know...

                              But yea, what we got sounds pretty much like you describe..
                              I don’t think George’s ideas would have been any better received than the trilogy we got. I certainly don’t think I would have enjoyed them very much, and while I think there are some folks who would have, I think the vast majority would have hated them. The Disney trilogy has issues for sure, but most people enjoyed TFA even if it wasn’t their favorite, and TLJ is divisive but truly loved by many. We’ll see what the response to ROS is long-term, but overall I think the trilogy we got is probably better than the one we would have gotten if George’s ideas had been fully embraced.


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                              • If George had continued, his episodes 7, 8, & 9 woud have come out in the same era when he made Howard the Duck.

                                keep that in mind

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