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  • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
    If they had wanted to follow the Marvel model, they could have used the extended universe as a rough outline and source of ideas the same way the comics are for the MCU.

    that actually seems to be what they have done to an extent. I have seen stuff from the EU mined for content in Rebels, and even RoS. I do think it needed more planning though

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    • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
      Unfortunately I can't help but feel that the problems with this new trilogy come down to a lack of long term planning and lack of vision.
      I couldn't help but read it in this voice. Sorry!

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      • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
        I guess I can't help but make the comparison to the MCU (which is also owned by Disney). When you look at the various Marvel movies you can see that they had certain goals in mind and were building up to them, and each movie adds to the puzzle they were creating (with a few extras that feel somewhat extraneous here and there). Iron Man 1 set up for Captain America, Captain America began setting up for the first Avengers movie, the first Avengers movie began setting up for the Thanos Saga, and all of the other movies created helped the overall story move forward. When they were making movie A, they had a general idea of what movie B would be, and maybe even a very rough idea of what might be in movies C and D, so you get something of a flow and can see how the movies are building on one another.

        With Star Wars through, they tossed out the extended universe and then had... well, nothing to work with. Getting rid of the extended universe was perfectly fine and certainly not a bad idea, but the problem is they don't appear to have spent any time planning what would replace it or what they wanted to do with their new franchise. For example, you'd think Luke's death (arguably the most important moment in the franchise) would have been well planned out in advance, but that doesn't appear to be the case.
        Yea, I'm with you. I'm really surprised they didn't least make a bare bones plan of where they wanted the story to go.

        Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
        If it were me, after getting the Star Wars property and deciding to toss out the extended universe, I would have had a creative team sit down for six months and hammer out some general, long term plans for the new Star Wars universe and then figure out how to have the movies serve as a good method to segue the general public between George Lucas' Star Wars and the new Disney Star Wars universe. But apparently that didn't happen, or at least none of that was communicated to the directors, so the new trilogy simply feels like it's lurching around with no clue as to what it's trying to do or where it's trying to go.
        What's crazy is, they have a story group that basically does that, and makes sure that all the books and comics and such don't conflict with other material. I'm really surprised the story group didn't come up with a basic outline of plot points the movies should hit. They didn't need a detailed plan, but they needed a plan of some kind.


        Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
        And again, that's not the fault of the directors, but simply the lack of planning with Disney.
        Yea! People want to blame Rian Johnson for whatever, but he could only work with what they gave him, and I thought he came up with some logical ideas about where the story would go after what was set up in The Force Awakens. A lot of people didn't like it though for whatever reason...

        But anyway, I don't blame the directors...

        Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
        If they were trying to mimic Lucas' success they forgot that even Lucas had certain elements of future movies planned out (you can see how there seems to have been a plan for Han to get captured by Jabba in the first movie, especially in relation to the cut footage) or how he was going to reveal Darth Vader was Luke's father. I don't think there was anything even that vague planned out for the new trilogy. At the very least it doesn't feel like some of the similar ideas that were revealed in Episode 9 were planned out in advance like that.
        I gotta disagree with some of that. I mean, I like that Vader was Luke's father, but it didn't quite seem planned out....or all the way thought out anyway. But maybe that's just the way I see it. I know he did have some sort of an outline, but he made up some things as he went. Which is fine, but at least he had a vague idea where he wanted things to go.

        You're right about Episode 9 though, it becomes apparent with that movie that there was no plan. Not that it's not enjoyable or anything, but I feel like it has the most glaring flaws of the whole sequel trilogy.
        Last edited by Mr Gone; 12-29-2019, 10:14 PM.


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        • Originally posted by Mr Gone View Post
          I gotta disagree with some of that. I mean, I like that Vader was Luke's father, but it didn't quite seem planned out....or all the way thought out anyway. But maybe that's just the way I see it. I know he did have some sort of an outline, but he made up some things as he went. Which is fine, but at least he had a vague idea where he wanted things to go.
          Just as a side note, Vader is how the Dutch word for Father is spelled (and very similar to how the German word for Father is pronounced). Meanwhile Lucas has said that Darth was a variation on the word Dark, so that Darth Vader is functionally Dark Father. At least that's what Lucas claimed was the origin for the name Darth Vader when asked. So I have to imagine that Lucas had that aspect of Luke's parentage planned out from the get go, or at least by the time he settled on Darth Vader's name.

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          • Sure, he said that after the fact. It’s really easy to shoot an arrow at a tree, and then paint a bullseye around the spot it hit after. The truth is, the stuff he says he had planned from the beginning, compared to some of what we’ve seen was his original design (i.e., “The Journal of the Whills, Part I”), makes this a tad dubious.
            Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 12-30-2019, 03:43 AM.

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            • Also, neither the Dutch nor the German word for "father" is pronounced with its "Va" part as "VAY," it's pronounced as "VAH."

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              • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                Just as a side note, Vader is how the Dutch word for Father is spelled (and very similar to how the German word for Father is pronounced). Meanwhile Lucas has said that Darth was a variation on the word Dark, so that Darth Vader is functionally Dark Father. At least that's what Lucas claimed was the origin for the name Darth Vader when asked. So I have to imagine that Lucas had that aspect of Luke's parentage planned out from the get go, or at least by the time he settled on Darth Vader's name.
                That is pretty interesting...and I've heard that before. Still not totally sure, but I can roll with it. There's just a few things in A New Hope that makes me think that wasn't the original intent, but I think those same thing could be used as evidence as well. It's weird that way..lol.

                I do think Luke and Leia being twins was not planned out though. While it works for the story, it doesn't seem like that was planned. In fact, I think in a few drafts it was pretty clear that Lukes sister was someone we hadn't seen before. But, it worked out...



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                • Also, this is me now.


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                  • It's weird, the tipping point when fans start believing they deserve more.

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                    • Originally posted by nofather View Post
                      It's weird, the tipping point when fans start believing they deserve more.
                      It's one of my least favorite times.


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                      • Originally posted by nofather View Post
                        It's weird, the tipping point when fans start believing they deserve more.
                        Not sure this is directed at me...I hope it's not.. But, I don't think I deserve more. I just wish I'd gotten something that was a little more thought out.

                        It's still Star Wars and I'm gonna watch it and like it. Doesn't mean I can't be a little critical of it...


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                        • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                          . And again, that's not the fault of the directors, but simply the lack of planning with Disney.
                          (Just jumping in on a contextual point, especially relative to some later posts by others)

                          The thing is, relative to Johnson's input with TLJ (just for contextual example), that even though it's true that Disney *should* have had a more structured approach to the third trilogy, it was still the case that he didn't just direct his film but also wrote it. That means that while ultimately the buck stops with the higher ups (Townsend, in this case), what Johnson *did* with his all-but-carte'-blanche for the second film is go a fair bit "off the Rebel Base", to paraphrase an oft-perceived as less-than-PC turn of phrase. While TRoS is a bit of packed mess (it truly could/should have been two movies, definitely, relative to the amount of ground covered and plot elements involved... and some characters being neglected), it at least has the "excuse" of trying to damage control both an ill-structured trilogy as well as work its way out of the corner it was partially painted into by the previous film. TLJ has narrative choices of direction, writing/scripting, and (mis)use of characters/characterization in several instances that are just *bad*, regardless of the lack of over-arching structure to the trilogy. And again unlike with TRoS, these include elements that the director/writer (especially as the same person) had complete control over, with only nominal influence from the higher ups. In that context, there is *some* fault to be laid at the directors' feet (Johnson, primarily, but also Abrams for choosing an application of narratives in the third film that were/are questionable, to say the least, from a movie-structure POV -- whereas TLJ had too much lag/drag/wasted time (over literally a half hour to forty-five minutes of wasted time... which is inexcusable), TRoS had the opposite problem and needed at least 15-20 minutes more, broken down throughout/across the movie in perhaps 3-4 narrative "drops" of several minutes at a time in order for the broader audience to have time to digest everything that was going on).

                          Those are definitely aspects that are the "fault" of the directors, and only go to make the lack of cohesion across the three films even more notable (even if, again, at that level it absolutely *is* Townsend-and-higher's responsibility for not assuring a better structural approach).

                          >crawls back to my tomb<


                          I have been around here for waaaayyyy too fucking long...

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                          • Originally posted by Just John, Forever... View Post
                            (Just jumping in on a contextual point, especially relative to some later posts by others)

                            The thing is, relative to Johnson's input with TLJ (just for contextual example), that even though it's true that Disney *should* have had a more structured approach to the third trilogy, it was still the case that he didn't just direct his film but also wrote it. That means that while ultimately the buck stops with the higher ups (Townsend, in this case), what Johnson *did* with his all-but-carte'-blanche for the second film is go a fair bit "off the Rebel Base", to paraphrase an oft-perceived as less-than-PC turn of phrase.
                            The critics adored TLJ, and Disney was so happy with it they were ready to hand Rian Johnson the reins to a whole trilogy, before a portion of the fanbase threw a fit about it, so I’m not sure your turn of phrase is really an appropriate description of what he did.

                            Originally posted by Just John, Forever... View Post
                            While TRoS is a bit of packed mess (it truly could/should have been two movies, definitely, relative to the amount of ground covered and plot elements involved... and some characters being neglected), it at least has the "excuse" of trying to damage control both an ill-structured trilogy as well as work its way out of the corner it was partially painted into by the previous film.
                            A poor excuse when the “corner” it had been “painted into” was ripe with potential for a great third act that could have tied the whole saga together beautifully. TRoS could have continued in the direction TLJ had set for it, but instead it decided to waste its time trying to undo everything the previous film did.

                            Originally posted by Just John, Forever... View Post
                            TLJ has narrative choices of direction, writing/scripting, and (mis)use of characters/characterization in several instances that are just *bad*, regardless of the lack of over-arching structure to the trilogy.
                            That’s an opinion, and one not shared by most film critics. Now, I won’t argue it’s a flawless movie, but arguments I’ve seen that try to say it’s *objectively bad* are generally quite weak.

                            Originally posted by Just John, Forever... View Post
                            whereas TLJ had too much lag/drag/wasted time (over literally a half hour to forty-five minutes of wasted time... which is inexcusable)
                            I assume you’re referring to Kanto Byte? That’s not wasted time. It underlines one of the core themes of the film, as well as finally making explicit one of the subtextual themes of the franchise as a whole. That sequence is actually brilliant for managing to demonstrate unambiguously through the text the underlying message that the prequel trilogy failed in its attempts to effectively communicate.


                            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                            • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                              I assume you’re referring to Kanto Byte? That’s not wasted time. It underlines one of the core themes of the film, as well as finally making explicit one of the subtextual themes of the franchise as a whole. That sequence is actually brilliant for managing to demonstrate unambiguously through the text the underlying message that the prequel trilogy failed in its attempts to effectively communicate.
                              I'm interested in this reading, could you explain?

                              I'm assuming it's not "war is bad", as that's been a very obvious as a theme, or "capitalism is bad" as the only times money have ever been focused on were all equally underlined as bad, and both handled really hamfistedly in this film...

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                              • Originally posted by Mr Gone View Post
                                Not sure this is directed at me...I hope it's not.. But, I don't think I deserve more. I just wish I'd gotten something that was a little more thought out.
                                Not specifically about anyone here, no. We've all seen among fandoms. People who think they (specifically them, not a broad 'they the movie goer') deserve more, that the movie has to cater to their wants. Basically the people who are right now harassing actors and directors for not doing what they think was better.

                                It's still Star Wars and I'm gonna watch it and like it. Doesn't mean I can't be a little critical of it...
                                Yeah I didn't say that, most of this thread is people (including myself) being critical of movies, including ones they liked.
                                Last edited by nofather; 12-31-2019, 01:16 PM.

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