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  • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post

    I'm interested in this reading, could you explain?

    I'm assuming it's not "war is bad", as that's been a very obvious as a theme, or "capitalism is bad" as the only times money have ever been focused on were all equally underlined as bad, and both handled really hamfistedly in this film...
    No, “war is bad” is an obvious theme of the whole franchise as you say. “Capitalism is bad” comes closer to the mark, and up until TLJ wasn’t really made explicit; one could very easily watch the rest of the series and not recognize that message in it. TLJ is perhaps overly-direct with that message, but I would argue the rest of the films have been too subtle with it. But no, that’s not really the theme I’m alluding to either - it is at best an oversimplification of the theme, which is that capitalism is fueled by war, or if you want to go a bit deeper, liberalism and fascism benefit each other.

    The original trilogy never really focuses on this. The evil fascist government has successfully overturned the ostensibly good liberal government, and the rebels have to defeat them. The prequels were intended to recontextualize the original trilogy by showing how it was the liberal government itself that ushered in the fascist government. But it was handled sloppily, the republic and the Jedi presented too sympathetically, causing the message to get swallowed up by the narrative. One could easily walk away from the prequels still thinking the republic and the Jedi order were good institutions that fell victim to circumstances beyond their control. Some of the ancillary media, like the Clone Wars, was a bit more successful in making this message clear, but it was still quite easy to miss, or worse, to walk away with the impression that “I guess there’s good and bad on both sides.” In the sequel trilogy, we see that a new liberal government has been installed, and fascist sentiment is growing within it, unchecked by the liberal government and opposed only by a small group of antifascist radicals. But TFA once again fails to actually critique liberalism for its role in the fascist rebirth, and it kinda paints them as allied with the antifascists, which is kind of silly. Anyway, TLJ finally comes out and lays the politics of the series bare: The Jedi order kinda sucked, the liberal bourgeoisie benefit from perpetual war, the fascists prey on this, and the cycle will continue to repeat itself unless and until we learn from the failures of our forebears. Don’t let the past die. Don’t romanticize it. Look at it critically and learn from it. Ham-fisted? Maybe, but that seems to have been what was needed to get the message across.


    Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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    • Not to mention that Finn gets to see in a very real sense what kind of person you are when you're only backing a side insofar as it can get you that thing you want, both in the rich types at Kanto Byte, and later with the hacker on the First Order's ship. Prior to that point, he'd only been doing things for either himself or Rey, and only cared about the Rebellion insofar as it could help him in those regards. He learns just how ugly that really is, by seeing it from the other side.
      Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 12-31-2019, 04:34 PM.

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      • Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
        Not to mention that Finn gets to see in a very real sense what kind of person you are when you're only backing a side insofar as it can get you that thing you want, both in the rich types at Kanto Byte, and later with the hacker on the First Order's ship. Prior to that point, he'd only been doing things for either himself or Rey, and only cared about the Rebellion insofar as it could help him in those regards. He learns just how ugly that really is, by seeing it from the other side.
        Yes, that too.


        Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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        • Whoa, yeah, didn't get anyof that. Like, at all, especially from Kanto Byte, from any of the movies.

          That's a really depressing read, that inevitably trying to be good will lead to the rise of evil.

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          • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post
            That's a really depressing read, that inevitably trying to be good will lead to the rise of evil.
            That's not what either of us said. Only doing good things to the extent that gets you the thing you want, and otherwise being cool with evil isn't "trying to be good," and leads to the rise of evil. The Republic wasn't trying to be good. The Jedi weren't trying to be good. Finn wasn't trying to be good.
            Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 12-31-2019, 05:16 PM.

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            • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post
              Whoa, yeah, didn't get anyof that. Like, at all, especially from Kanto Byte, from any of the movies.

              That's a really depressing read, that inevitably trying to be good will lead to the rise of evil.
              Haha, no. Inevitably liberalism will lead to the rise of fascism. And, in the Star Wars universe at least, this is demonstrably true. The Old Republic of legends, the Republic of the prequels, the New Republic of the Disney sequels, all liberal governments, all allowed a sith-controlled fascist regime to fester under their watch and eventually rise to power. Luke was only able to defeat the empire and redeem Anakin by ignoring the advice of the Jedi, by rejecting their philosophy of ascetic detachment, by abandoning his training to save his friends, and by refusing to accept that killing his father was the only option.

              In TLJ we see a Luke who has come to fully appreciate the failings of the republic and the Jedi, and comes to the same conclusion you do here: he decides that doing good inevitably leads to the rise of evil, and tries to leave the fight. Cut himself off from the force so that his good intentions can’t make things even worse. But his confrontation with Rey and a pep talk from Yoda showed him that he was wrong in this too: that we must not reject the failings of past, but learn from them.


              Potential Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance spoiler:
              Side-note: for another fantasy work that takes a sobering look at the symbiotic relationship between liberalism and fascism (as well as a caution about the result of leaving a seed of fascism to germinate even after its initial defeat, when taken in the context of the original), check out The Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance
              Last edited by Charlaquin; 01-01-2020, 03:33 AM.


              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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              • With a minor reminder that liberalism isn't here meaning "left-wing" - it's actually pretty centrist and heavily capitalist.

                ​(I find that people in the U.S. either tend to overlook or forget it, but it's an important distinction.)
                Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 12-31-2019, 06:12 PM.

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                • Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                  With a minor reminder that liberalism isn't here meaning "left-wing" - it's actually pretty centrist and capitalist.

                  ​(I find that people in the U.S. either tend to overlook or forget it, but it's an important distinction.)
                  Good clarification! Yeah, here in the states “liberal” and “left-wing” are often treated as synonymous because our Overton window skews so far right. But they are absolutely not the same.


                  Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                  • Originally posted by nofather View Post
                    Not specifically about anyone here, no. We've all seen among fandoms. People who think they (specifically them, not a broad 'they the movie goer') deserve more, that the movie has to cater to their wants. Basically the people who are right now harassing actors and directors for not doing what they think was better.
                    Ah yea. That's not good... why people think it's ok to do that is beyond me. It's crazy...


                    Originally posted by nofather View Post
                    Yeah I didn't say that, most of this thread is people (including myself) being critical of movies, including ones they liked.
                    Yea, I can be pretty critical of movies, especially ones I liked.



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                    • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                      Good clarification! Yeah, here in the states “liberal” and “left-wing” are often treated as synonymous because our Overton window skews so far right. But they are absolutely not the same.
                      No, the research shows the Overton window lurched heavily to the left. The left claim they’re liberals even as they try to increase governmental control over every facet of life, which is not liberal, but rather authoritarian. Since America hates authoritarians, the left use liberals for camouflage.


                      Anyway, I hate The Last Jedi. I enjoyed it at the time, but the more I thought about it, the more I hated it.

                      Carry Fisher died, and Leia’s ejection into the void was the perfect moment to retire the character. Mark Hamill was alive and well and perfectly willing to appear in the next movie, yet his character is the one who died.

                      Kathleen Kennedy and Ryan Johnson should have accepted reality and changed their plans to let Luke survive and be the one to train Rey in the final movie. That they didn’t only lends weight to the rumors that Kennedy hates the character of Luke Skywalker.

                      I certainly hate what they did to him. The man who pulled back from the Dark Side rather than kill his thoroughly evil father, the man who believed his father could set aside his evil ways and change... THAT Luke Skywalker had a scary dream that his nephew MIGHT turn to the Dark Side and decided to go kill the boy in his sleep? And then he ran away from his friends and family in their time of great need? Is this the same Luke who abandoned his training to go save those people from Vader?

                      That’s not Ryan Johnson’s fault though, because the seeds for this were planted in The Force Awakens. So I think it’s all Kathleen Kennedy, which goes back again to the rumors that she just hates Luke Skywalker.

                      They did the same thing to Han Solo, turning him into a deadbeat dad and terrible husband who abandons his family to return to being a loser and smuggler after the original triology involved a huge character arc of him becoming a hero.

                      Both of them acting out of character and running away also prevented us from getting the on-screen reunion that Disney NEEDED to deliver if they really wanted to bring in the nostalgia bucks and earn enough goodwill from the old fans to pay for whatever bold new direction Disney wanted to go in. And then Carrie Fisher was taken so soon.


                      I liked Rey being just some nobody. I liked the kid at the end of the second movie, with the broom and the badge looking up at the stars like the kid could become the next Luke Skywalker. It might have worked better if Rey had been the one to inspire the kid rather than Rose, since Rey is the one who is supposed struggling with issues of self-worth based on humble lineage.

                      I loved Finn, but the second movie didn’t really do anything with him. I was hoping he would become a Jedi, too. A stormtrooper becoming a Jedi would have been a lot more novel than another orphan from a desert planet becoming a Jedi, which we’ve already seen. Twice.

                      Poe was great in the first movie, but the first movie failed to make him part of a trio with Rey and Finn, like the first movie of the original trilogy made a trio out of Han, Luke, and Leia. Poe never even met Rey. The second movie also did Poe dirty, but then the second movie was a logical mess on everything not involving Rey.


                      Palpatine coming back and being Rey’s grandfather destroys Annakin’s story of redemption and breaking free from Palpatine’s control (and Luke’s story of forgiveness). Palpatine’s granddaughter killing him exactly like he said he wanted, and leaving his progeny alone to stand triumphant, is basically his victory. The Skywalker are defeated and dead, and now his child has taken their name and place.
                      Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 01-01-2020, 03:57 AM.


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                      • Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                        No, the research shows the Overton window lurched heavily to the left. The left claim they’re liberals even as they try to increase governmental control over every facet of life, which is not liberal, but rather authoritarian. Since America hates authoritarians, the left use liberals for camouflage.
                        Haha what?! What “research” are you reading?

                        Authoritarianism is the Y-axis of the political compass, both left and right can be authoritarian, libertarian, or anywhere in-between. The American left generally leans libertarian, as does much of the American right, although the growing fascist sentiment in the American right has been dragging them further towards the authoritarian end of that spectrum. At any rate, as a centrist ideology, liberalism is certainly more authoritarian than the libertarian left or right. And yes, increasing government involvement is by definition liberal, that’s what the word liberal means.

                        Also, the left generally doesn’t care for liberalism, or centrism in general, so the idea that the left “uses liberals as camouflage” is truly laughable.

                        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                        Anyway, I hate The Last Jedi. I enjoyed it at the time, but the more I thought about it, the more I hated it.

                        Carry Fisher died, and Leia’s ejection into the void was the perfect moment to retire the character. Mark Hamill was alive and well and perfectly willing to appear in the next movie, yet his character is the one who died.

                        Kathleen Kennedy and Ryan Johnson should have accepted reality and changed their plans to let Luke survive and be the one to train Rey in the final movie.
                        I actually agree with you on that, though I do think Luke’s death scene was excellent.


                        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                        That they didn’t only lends weight to the rumors that Kennedy hates the character of Luke Skywalker.
                        Haha ok.

                        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                        I certainly hate what they did to him. The man who pulled back from the Dark Side rather than kill his thoroughly evil father, the man who believed his father could set aside his evil ways and change... THAT Luke Skywalker had a scary dream that his nephew MIGHT turn to the Dark Side and decided to go kill the boy in his sleep? And then he ran away from his friends and family in their time of great need? Is this the same Luke who abandoned his training to go save those people from Vader?
                        You mean the man who was moments away from killing his own father in a fit of rage and came to his senses only after the injuries he had inflicted on him were too severe for him to survive? I absolutely believe that that guy would momentarily consider killing his nephew after seeing what he would become, and come to his senses only after he woke up and saw him with the light saber ignited. I also believe that, after learning how the Jedi order made the rise of the empire possible, he would make the decision to stay away from the fighting for fear of making it worse.

                        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                        They did the same thing to Han Solo, turning him into a deadbeat dad and terrible husband who abandons his family to return to being a loser and smuggler after the original triology involved a huge character arc of him becoming a hero.
                        Yeah, TFA was a pretty flawed movie.

                        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                        Both of them acting out of character and running away also prevented us from getting the on-screen reunion that Disney NEEDED to deliver if they really wanted to bring in the nostalgia bucks and earn enough goodwill from the old fans to pay for whatever bold new direction Disney wanted to go in. And then Carrie Fisher was taken so soon.
                        Whatever you say, Thor.

                        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                        I liked Rey being just some nobody. I liked the kid at the end of the second movie, with the broom and the badge looking up at the stars like the kid could become the next Luke Skywalker. It might have worked better if Rey had been the one to inspire the kid rather than Rose, since Rey is the one who is supposed struggling with issues of self-worth based on humble lineage.
                        Rose? You mean Luke?

                        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                        I loved Finn, but the second movie didn’t really do anything with him. I was hoping he would become a Jedi, too. A stormtrooper becoming a Jedi would have been a lot more novel than another orphan from a desert planet becoming a Jedi, which we’ve already seen. Twice.
                        Fin becoming a Jedi might have been cool. Hard to say, as it would have been a very different series. His arc as it was, was pretty good though in my opinion.

                        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                        Poe was great in the first movie, but the first movie failed to make him part of a trio with Rey and Finn, like the first movie of the original trilogy made a trio out of Han, Luke, and Leia. Poe never even met Rey. The second movie also did Poe dirty, but then the second movie was a logical mess on everything not involving Rey.
                        Poe did nothing in the first movie, so his characterization in the second seemed reasonable enough to me.

                        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                        Palpatine coming back and being Rey’s grandfather destroys Annakin’s story of redemption and breaking free from Palpatine’s control (and Luke’s story of forgiveness). Palpatine’s granddaughter killing him exactly like he said he wanted, and leaving his progeny alone to stand triumphant, is basically his victory. The Skywalker are defeated and dead, and now his child has taken their name and place.
                        Yeah, Rise of Skywalker was a bad movie.
                        Last edited by Charlaquin; 01-01-2020, 03:27 AM. Reason: Adding spoiler blocks


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                        • Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                          I certainly hate what they did to him. The man who pulled back from the Dark Side rather than kill his thoroughly evil father, the man who believed his father could set aside his evil ways and change... THAT Luke Skywalker had a scary dream that his nephew MIGHT turn to the Dark Side and decided to go kill the boy in his sleep? And then he ran away from his friends and family in their time of great need? Is this the same Luke who abandoned his training to go save those people from Vader?
                          Not mad or anything but if you could, would you mind throwing some spoilers in your post? There might be some people who end up seeing a few of the bigger plot points for Rise of Skywalker spoiled when they read your post and this is the general "movies" thread.

                          Anyway, there were a lot of things in the Last Jedi that I didn't care for, but this was one thing that had a solid foundation in the prequel movies and from a certain perspective makes complete sense.

                          One of the big ideas in the prequel trilogy is the idea that the Jedi teachings are both right and correct and problems start cropping up when the Jedi begin ignoring their own teachings and codes and become hypocrites in the name of expediency or personal gratification.

                          You can see how the various problems in the Star Wars universe can be tied directly to the the Jedi becoming hypocrites who threw their own teachings and codes aside when it became inconvenient. For example the Jedi teachings had taught that the Jedi Order should remain separate from the Republic and serve to protect the people, but not to protect or serve the government itself. Basically they were intended to be a private group who went around policing Force users, but didn't get involved in the actual politics of the galaxy. When the Jedi Order jumped in to become the Republic's vanguard during the Galactic Civil War, it ended up being so busy fighting droids that they had their numbers depleted and weren't able to spot the Sith Lord hiding in their midst.

                          The Order's teaching had also taught, for thousands of years, that older people who already had attachments to the outside world wouldn't be able to internalize the Jedi's teachings and would not be able to live up to the Jedi code. During Episode 1, Yoda pointed this out when Qui-Gon wanted to train Anakin (Yoda even has the discussion with Anakin about how he can sense fear in Anakin due to the child's worries about his mother) but the Jedi Council overruled Yoda and decided to train Anakin anyway (Qui-gon was pushed by his personal desire to train the Chosen One). As such it can't really be considered surprising that Anakin's connection to his mother eventually ended in him falling into the Dark Side (slaughtering a bunch of women an children). That's because you had 10,000 years of Jedi teachings say that something like that was an expected of training a person like Anakin who was too old and had ties to the outside world.

                          Another idea was that it went against the Jedi's teachings for a Jedi to fall in love. The Jedi teachings taught that the connections you build with people end up drawing individuals to the dark side because they create worry and fear for their loved one. That's exactly what happened with Anakin and the result was that it led him to join Darth Sidious. Again, thousands of years of Jedi Masters would probably collective nod and say, "Well of course it was going to end badly, that's why warned about it!"

                          There were some other places here and there where we saw how the Jedi teachings were correct in retrospect, but getting back to Luke, you can see the same thing with him. When he shows up on Dagobah, Yoda doesn't want to train him. Yoda's seen first hand that training people who are too old doesn't work out. He sees too much Anakin in Luke and believes that Luke is too old to ever be able to internalize the Jedi's teachings. We see Luke wrestling with his emotions and almost fall to the Dark Side in his final confrontation with Vader.

                          So in Episode 8, we find out that Yoda's initial misgivings were completely correct and this makes sense in light of what we've seen in Episodes 1, 2 and 3.. When Luke was faced with the Dark Side he sensed in Ben, he instinctively whipped out his lightsaber because he had never properly internalized the sort of emotional detachment that was necessary for a Jedi (just like the Jedi teachings said he would never be able to do because he started his training so late) and it probably didn't help that Ben was Luke's nephew. Had it been a "proper" Jedi Master, they wouldn't have reacted as emotionally or violently as Luke did.

                          I'll agree though that the idea that Luke never had what it took to be a true Jedi to begin with and was basically destined for failure isn't narratively satisfying. I was sort of hoping that the new trilogy would lean away from how Lucas had pushed the the idea that the Jedi teachings were right, but instead TLJ basically doubled down on it. I'll be interested to see where they take things in the future, if we're going to get a new Jedi Order, or if they're going to toss out some of the teachings, or what is going to end up happening.
                          Last edited by AnubisXy; 01-01-2020, 01:22 AM.

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                          • https://youtu.be/rhVdpN0sq5s

                            The same research Tim Pool was reading since at least two years ago, and which hasn’t changed any of the other times he’s cited it since. Trump’s actually more centrist than past Republican presidents; even Obama and Hillary didn’t promise to recognize gay marriage, and he’s trying to force foreign countries to stop murdering their gays.

                            If the Left’s ideas were so effective and popular, they wouldn’t need to use the government to force people to do what they wanted; they wouldn’t have needed to use the Supreme Court to bypass congress’s bill-writing process to make up laws through legal precedent. Obama wouldn’t have written so many executive orders, or expanded the power of the presidency that Trump now holds with those same expanded powers. (see: NOW you’re worried about Executive power?)

                            Hillary would have won middle-America.


                            Luke’s “final battle” and death scene were pretty cool. Whatever else I may think, I think those scenes were well-executed, and Luke’s odd behavior turning out to be because he was an illusion seemed really clever.


                            I feel you meant to insult me by calling me Thor. If so, it would be childish of you to resort to ad hominem attacks for lack of an actual counter argument. Also because I didn’t even call you a name first. If you’re instead referencing a meme, I don’t know it.


                            Rose is the one who met and inspired the little broom child. Luke never left his hideaway. Also, why did Rose free the animals and not the children? Wouldn’t the children suffer punishment for letting her free the animals?
                            Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 01-01-2020, 01:21 AM.


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                            • Put spoilers in spoiler tags. PLEASE.


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                              • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                                I actually agree with you on that, though I do think Luke’s death scene was excellent.
                                Personally that was the most unsatisfying scene in the movie for me and the moment I disliked the most. I would have much preferred it if he had actually gone there and died in person. Instead the whole thing just felt really weird.

                                They had shown Luke's X-wing earlier so when Luke shows up I assumed it was him in person. Then Kylo appears to cut down Luke. Oh no, Luke's dead! But then it turns out Luke is basically a Force projection and they show him back on the other planet. Oh, I guess Luke didn't die. Alright, where is this going? And then Luke proceeded to die a few moments later anyway. Huh? Okaaaaay, I guess it went nowhere?

                                Narratively speaking, it made me really wonder why they chose to have Luke die like that. All I can think is that Johnson wanted Luke to basically commit suicide as opposed to being killed by someone? Whatever the reason I didn't care much for it and think there could have been much more satisfying ways to have the same outcome.

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