Movies

[Charlaquin]

Joker was alright, I guess. I've seen better movies. Seen worse ones too. If nothing else, Joaquin Phoenix did an amazing job with the material he was given.

I think it was a technically excellent piece of cinema, I just didn’t care for the content.

Honestly, I didn't find it dark at all. As I said, it's obviously not a feel good movie, it's about a guy in a lot of pain.

I don’t think anyone expected a feel-good movie, and it being dark or not isn’t really the issue.

I could sympathize with everything he's going through.

This is the issue. Well, one of them, anyway. Sympathy for active shooters is not a good thing to be drumming up.

Don't think for a second I condone anything he did, any of the pain he caused others, or the murders he committed, I don't.

I don’t much care what you think of what he did. I care what disaffected young white men think of his message. “You get what you deserve” is the cry of the incel and the white nationalist, and it’s not a cry I want them seeing celebrated in media.

To me, this movie shows just how important it is to listen, and how important it is that we have help and support for people in pain.How important common human decency really is. What if his sessions didn't end? What if Wayne really was his father and didn't deny it. What if he wasn't mocked by Murray?

That’s a valid takeaway, but it’s one based on fear. “If you don’t support people with mental illness, they might snap and kill someone” is not a great message to be sending, because it instills fear of people with mental illness rather than empathy.

And, to top it all off, the revolutionary movement being inspired by the joker either makes him out to be a hero, or paints revolutionary action as villainous. Either way, that’s another message I’m not super thrilled about. I shouldn’t be surprised, it’s territory already walked by Dark Knight Rises, but it’s still pretty gross.

[ArcaneArts]

Crossposting on the subject of Joker:

Okay, credit where due, as more information leaks on Joker, the more the realities of systemic abuse and neglect collide with the realities of mental illness and how that transmutes into ableism and into a call for revolution and the unintended consequences of that, the more credible it sort of is.

The problem, though?

IT'S FUCKING JOKER.

YOU CANNOT MAKE JOKER A FUCKING REVOLUTIONARY.

LEGITIMACY IS NOT IN THE CORE OF JOKER'S PORTFOLIO.

JOKER REPRESENTS SOMETHING UGLY IN ALL OF US THAT SHOULD NOT BE ADHERED TO. JOKER'S CORE IS THE CRUEL HUMOR ASSOCIATED WITH TRANSGRESSIVE CATHARSIS APPLIED IN REALITY. IF VIOLENCE IS EVER JUSTIFIED, IT IS NOT IN THE CASE OF JOKER. JOKER IS HERE TO HIGHLIGHT THE CRUELTY PURSUED IN THE CATHARSIS ACHIEVED IN HARMING OTHERS.

THAT'S THE JOKE. PLEASE GET IT.

Like, yeah, systemic ableism is something to get up in arms over, but Joker is not really the character you want to be the one holding that flag, and honestly the "psychological damage" angle to the Joker in the Bronze Age has done no favors for getting down into the actual core of the character.

If I'm gonna watch a Joker movie, I had better be reminded of how good it feels to break someone's jaw while having it clear that just doing that is, you know, terrible. That is all the justification and refutation I really need.

[Willowfang]

Certainly we shouldn't use emotional blackmail to scare people into helping troubled people, but "we the people" should do enough as needed so that the social worker at the beginning is available to help people in pain.

I can sympathize with him insomuch that he's in a lot of pain.

I DO NOT sympathize in any way that lashing out and hurting others is a valid means, or should be any kind of movement, for trying to rectify a person's pain or their perceived injustices

[Charlaquin]

Certainly we shouldn't use emotional blackmail to scare people into helping troubled people, but "we the people" should do enough as needed so that the social worker at the beginning is available to help people in pain.

Certainly, and as Arc points out, the Joker is the wrong character to be delivering that message through.

I can sympathize with him insomuch that he's in a lot of pain.

I DO NOT sympathize in any way that lashing out and hurting others is a valid means, or should be any kind of movement, for trying to rectify a person's pain or their perceived injustices

That’s all well and good, but you’re not a radicalized young person dealing with misdirected anger about the state of the world and your place in it.

[tasti man LH]

Joker

Hmmm...it's a hard movie for me to have definitive thoughts on.

My gut says that this is a very interesting movie that leaves a lot for one to think on.

It's definitely not what I would call a "fun" movie: it's about a man that's broken from all sides and gives in to his darker half.

Phoenix absolutely does deliver a haunting, unsettling, yet enthralling performance as Arthur Fleck/Joker.

I'll admit that this is a movie I don't think people largely wanted (especially since this is being released the year Avengers: Endgame was released), but ultimately I'm glad that it exists and that I had the opportunity to see it.

Can't just have nothing but feel-good MCU movies.

[ArcaneArts]

I don't understand this weird idea where it seems like people seem to think "fun" was somehow part of the buy-in created for the movie, and that thusly it needs to be iterated that it is not and that that's okay.

That's not a critique, but it is a weird trend to see amongst a majority of people who saw it.

[tasti man LH]

I don't understand this weird idea where it seems like people seem to think "fun" was somehow part of the buy-in created for the movie, and that thusly it needs to be iterated that it is not and that that's okay.

That's not a critique, but it is a weird trend to see amongst a majority of people who saw it.

I think it has to do with the notion that "superhero/comic book movies have to be fun to watch". That that's part of the genre, and if it doesn't, it suddenly disqualifies and invalidates it from being part of the genre.

[ArcaneArts]

I think it has to do with the notion that "superhero/comic book movies have to be fun to watch". That that's part of the genre, and if it doesn't, it suddenly disqualifies and invalidates it from being part of the genre.

That still jives weirdly considering that things like The Dark Knight and Logan are not only part of the superhero watch canon, but posterboys for that canon.

[tasti man LH]

That still jives weirdly considering that things like The Dark Knight and Logan are not only part of the superhero watch canon, but posterboys for that canon.

Presumably it's that those movies at least has action scenes high on spectacle to have a blast watching despite the more mature subject matter, while Joker does not.

Hard to have fun if you have scenes where your protagonist

shoots three drunk white collar workers in cold blood, strangles his adopted mom with a pillow, and shoots a TV host in the head on live TV

EDIT: Tags fixed

[ArcaneArts]

Presumably it's that those movies at least has action scenes high on spectacle to have a blast watching despite the more mature subject matter, while Joker does not.

Hard to have fun if you have scenes where your protagonist some pretty horrific stuff.

Fairness.

[tasti man LH]

Well, I suppose for better or for worse, the Joker is going to hold the "honor" of being a comic book movie where the action isn't a main selling point.

Make of that what you will.

[ArcaneArts]

Well, I suppose for better or for worse, the Joker is going to hold the "honor" of being a comic book movie where the action isn't a main selling point.

Make of that what you will.

Well, on that front, something had to start the trend. Hopefully that will be a trend.

[Willowfang]

Certainly, and as Arc points out, the Joker is the wrong character to be delivering that message through.

Hmm, okay, so definitely a differently a movie could have been made to showcase a person in pain and have had a more positive outcome.

In fact, we actually have a great deal of similar stories. Punisher, Falling Down, Death Wish, John Wick, Walking Tall

That’s all well and good, but you’re not a radicalized young person dealing with misdirected anger about the state of the world and your place in it.

It is of course dangerous to Humanize a mass shooter, but we should not also dehumanize a person in pain either. Pain needs awareness. But sadly, I dunno how we can send the right message without the wrong message also being drawn from a story like this.

[TheCountAlucard]

Well, on that front, something had to start the trend. Hopefully that will be a trend.

I would have preferred if it had come from The Sandman.

[Charlaquin]

Hmm, okay, so definitely a differently a movie could have been made to showcase a person in pain and have had a more positive outcome.

In fact, we actually have a great deal of similar stories. Punisher, Falling Down, Death Wish, John Wick, Walking Tall

It is of course dangerous to Humanize a mass shooter, but we should not also dehumanize a person in pain either. Pain needs awareness. But sadly, I dunno how we can send the right message without the wrong message also being drawn from a story like this.

Well... By doing it with characters who aren’t the Joker. I don’t have these issues with Taxi Driver or King of Comedy. The Joker is cool. Obviously he’s not someone people generally want to emulate, but part of that is that it’s generally made a point of how reprehensible he is. But this movie doesn’t do that. It asks the viewer to see him as a tragic character rather than a villainous one. As a man in pain lashing out, instead of an force of chaos and destruction. This Joker kills because he’s been wronged, and inspires revolution rather than killing because it’s fun and inspiring fear. We condemn this Joker because we condemn murder generally, but for people who are already thinking along the lines of “what do you get when you cross a mentally ill loner with a society that abandons him and treats him like trash?” it doesn’t do anything to make “you get what you deserve” look like a bad answer.