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  • BDSM

    Since its been suggested it was thread drift in the LGBTQA thread, I've reopened the topic here.

    There has been 1 trail on weather or not BDSM is a sexual orination or not, in BC. The results were inconcusive, the human rights tribunal agreed that it was reasonable to do so, but did not make a ruling on it as they did not believe it was the reason why the individual in question was denied a Chauffer Licience, he had history of legal charges against him and his testimony did not match up amoung others.

    I know I'm going to be mocked and I don't give a shit, I am sincre in my beliefs.

  • #2
    It certainly fits as an alternative lifestyle, which I think is the A in LGBTQA, but sexual orientation seems to be who people are attracted to. BDSM seems to be a way that attraction manifests.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by nofather View Post
      It certainly fits as an alternative lifestyle, which I think is the A in LGBTQA, but sexual orientation seems to be who people are attracted to. BDSM seems to be a way that attraction manifests.
      I'm fairly certain it's referring to Asexuality and variants therein.


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      • #4
        Originally posted by nofather View Post
        It certainly fits as an alternative lifestyle, which I think is the A in LGBTQA, but sexual orientation seems to be who people are attracted to. BDSM seems to be a way that attraction manifests.
        The A stands for Asexual. BDSM can certainly be a lifestyle, (though it doesn't have to be) but it's definitely not a sexual orientation. There are lesbian kinksters, gay kinksters, bi kinksters, ace kinksters, and any other orientation of kinksters you can think of.

        There's a fair bit of crossover between the LGBTQA and BDSM communities, but that has a lot to do with the fact that people in the LGBTQA community tend to be pretty sex-positive - even my Ace friends are very sex-positive, despite not actually enjoying sex, and one of them is even into BDSM.

        For sure, plenty of people have kinks that must be addressed for a sexual relationship to be satisfying to them. But I still wouldn't call that a sexual orientation, personally. Especially since BDSM doesn't even have to involve sex. Plenty of people, my aforementioned ace friend included, are into purely non-sexual BDSM play.
        Last edited by Charlaquin; 07-16-2015, 02:48 PM.


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        • #5
          Personally, I think part of the problem is the power we give labels as humans.

          Is BDSM a sexual orientation? Not in the strict definition of such (as much as there is one) because "sexual orientation" refers to your sexual desires based on you and your partner(s)' gender identities. BDSM is definitely part of sexual identity, and it is definitely an orientation, it's just that the combination of those as a phrase is more narrow. There's no specific reason we have to be narrow in what "sexual orientation" means; it's just a natural linguistic result of gender playing such a major part of who humans define their sexual identity.

          There's always going to be people that don't like expanding definitions. While I think most people agree that expanding the mainstream conceptualization of sexuality is healthy, a lot of groups feel threatened in this process. Whether or not the LGBTQA communities should embrace the BDSM, Kink, and similar communities who are defined by sexual identity aspects other than gender, to create a wider movement towards a more inclusive and more holistic social acceptance of sexuality as a spectrum can be very divisive.

          I have seen LGBTQA community members be extremely aggressive in using the fact that BDSM does not fit the strict definition of sexual orientation to deny the struggles the BDSM community faces (which parallel the LGBTQA ones in many facets) as being valid struggles for freedom to act out or sexual desires within the ethical realms of informed consent. BDSM includes a large number of activities that are illegal, and is still dealing with the main psychology academic bodies recognizing BDSM as a healthy expression of human sexuality.

          Personally, I think sexual orientation has a strong cultural meaning and leaving it as is, is more productive. The social movement should be moved towards recognizing all human sexuality as part of human nature, so we can get past all these things and focus on what will actually make for a healthier society. We need to get past the idea that people are having sex in a way we only don't like because we find it "icky" so we can focus our laws, and social norms, on stopping unethical sexual behaviors.

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          • #6
            When one is trying to establish that their behavior is normal it doesn't help to have to defend another group that is piggybacking on your cause. That's the reasoning behind some of that vehemence from the LGBTQA community. The popular public perception of BDSM is that it is deviant behavior (not arguing that either way) and the biggest argument from the LGBTQA side is that their behavior isn't deviant. If someone can't see why a gay person doesn't want to have an extra argument to deal with I'm not the right person to explain that to them. I wish people could be non-judgmental pricks, a lot can, but a lot more can't. Everyone has their biases and prejudices, it's a display of character to recognize them and do the right thing despite those views.


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            • #7
              I'm not really sure it's fair to say the BDSM community is, in any sense, trying to piggyback on the LGBTQA's direct cause; any more than LGBTQA's can be said to be trying to piggyback off of the Civil Rights movement in the USA (esp. regarding interracial marriage).

              The point (I've seen advocated in the Advocate no less) is that the two groups actually have the same cause, and much like the Civil Rights movement there is greater strength in pooling the resources of these groups together. The Civil Rights movement wasn't actually just about African Americans; even if they remain the largest public face of the movement culturally.

              As well, not that it is fair, the LGBTQA community has had to deal with the "extra" arguments anyway. One of the constant (failing) arguments against the increased social, and legal acceptance of same-sex relationships, and trans-spectrum gender identities, has been obnoxious slippery slopes about how allowing same-sex marriages will somehow lead to legalized bestiality and unstoppable offending pedophiles. I think the reaction is a lot less not wanting the extra questions to deal with, but a fear that trying to expand the cause with lead to setbacks. They've been having to say, "No, gay marriage isn't going to cause X other sexuality to suddenly be acceptable," so much that it gets said even when, perhaps, it shouldn't.

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              • #8
                Do Asexuals have a problem being recognized on the same level as the LGBTQ groups?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by nofather View Post
                  Do Asexuals have a problem being recognized on the same level as the LGBTQ groups?
                  Yeah, Ace erasure is a pretty big problem. There's a lot of dismissive attitudes towards their sexuality, even within LGBTQ circles.


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                  • #10
                    (the following is intended humorously, and not as an attack or offensive)

                    I favour the idea of including BDSM as part of the LGBTQIA grouping, just because I want to see how long that acronym can get :-P


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Allan53 View Post
                      (the following is intended humorously, and not as an attack or offensive)

                      I favour the idea of including BDSM as part of the LGBTQIA grouping, just because I want to see how long that acronym can get :-P
                      Are you sure? I mean this IS the subculture that decided YKINMKBYKIOK was an appropriate length acronym.


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                      • #12
                        As someone who has known the ins-and-outs of many different subcultures of sexuality, I have to side with the camp that says BDSM *isn't* a sexual orientation but rather an expression of sexual orientation/desire. That's a very important distinction. With no intent on offending anyone who might have a horse in the race, as it were, I think that anyone who thinks BDSM should be listed as a sexual orientation/gender identity should take a step back and *really* think about what they are saying... if they do, then it should become clear that BDSM is not in the same type of categorization as being Gay/Bi/Straight, Transgender, Asexual, Intersex, or Gender-Queer. Even the relatively closer concept of Polyamory is an applied step-to-the-left, orientation-wise, but would still much more closely qualify as a sexual orientation than BDSM would, as that latter term is both an expression/applied action of a given sexual orientation (that is, it doesn't describe an orientation at all, as *anyone* can be BDSM and be of any of the rainbow flavors of LGBTQI) as well as a form of acquired fetishism from a psychological POV, as opposed to being a base-line. Again, very important distinctions.

                        To put it another way, and to cross-compare with a current hot-button issue: unlike with same-sex marriage (which doesn't, despite what many hard-right and/or hard-religious individuals might believe/say, change the structure of marriage), the adding of BDSM to the rainbow of sexual orientation/gender identity *does* change the structure of the categorization in a very significant way -- it takes the applied (and variable) actions of an individual vs. the inherent physical or mental orientations of identity as if they were categorically the same... which they are not. Plenty of gay people are kinky as all get-out; plenty are as vanilla as a third of Neapolitan icecream. Same thing with heterosexuals, bisexuals, transgenders, intersexed and gender-queer.

                        As a sidenote comparison: it is a similar argument -- one I don't care to make, but that I recognize as cognitively valid and sound -- as to why polyamory must be considered very, very carefully before being legally accepted -- not because of any moral considerations, which shouldn't be involved in the first place, but because of ethical/legal complications that arise when 3+ people would be allowed to enter into the legal construct of marriage as it exists. Many who argue for polyamory in the same vein as if it were the same as allowing for same-sex marriage miss a great deal by only seeing things from their own perspective/desires: accountability of property, custody of children/complications of adoption, legal coverage of medical/life insurance, inheritances, tax divisions, etc., all become very complicated by the marriage of 3+ people, and divorce even more so. The point of bringing that up is that contextually polyamory is closer to being a sexual orientation (not exactly, but still closer) than BDSM is, and in the marriage comparison "polyamory" is the "same-sex marriage", while BDSM is a step beyond what polyamory is relative to that; that is, it's beyond even the comparison of poly-marriage compared to same-sex marriage compared to opposite-sex marriage. It simply isn't applicable as an orientation, and trying to shoe-horn it in has far more conceptual complications/applications that when comparing poly-marriage to two-partner marriage.

                        >shrugs<
                        Last edited by Just John, Forever...; 07-17-2015, 08:49 PM. Reason: spacing


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                        • #13
                          A fetish is not an orientation. And I say this as someone who has this fetish something fierce.


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                          • #14
                            BDSM isn't "a fetish."

                            And the general definition of orientation that the specific definition of sexual orientation is derived from, basically just means, "preference." You can have a progressive political orientation, for example.

                            A fetish might not be an orientation, but it can certainly be part of an orientation that defines your sexual identity.

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                            • #15
                              The short version for me is I don’t particularly think BDSM belongs in the sort of LGBTQ continuum of orientations. In general, LGBTQ is your gender (or lack thereof) and the gender(s) you are attracted to (or lack thereof). Both can be major components in terms of marriage, divorce, children, inheritance, visiting rights at hospitals and must be protected from discrimination because to live as an LGBTQ means risking because of who you love. It is difficult, and painful, to hide. Stressful. Burns at the pit of your stomach. Awful. BDSM enthusiasts are not, as far as I know, being murdered, committing suicide, being driven to becoming sex workers, or facing the sheer harassment of LGBTQs who choose to live openly in many places.

                              Now, that said, I do think, within another context, BDSM could be called a group of orientations. I mean that differently than the gender related orientations above, but it can have a major impact on who and how you love. The language is, however, tricky; Orientation is an accurate word, but politically charged. And this would have a similar, but not identical meaning.

                              I do not believe BDSM should be illegal. I absolutely believe adults should be able to fuck how they want if everyone is onboard with it. I am talking about both Bondage/Sado-Masochism and just Dominant and Submissive. And other intriguing permutations.

                              However, it is a different case there with regard to BDSM rights vs. LGBTQ. While it is far from impossible to discover a given person enjoys BDSM in whatever flavor they do, it’s not a major issue with marriage rights, divorce, inheritance, or children. Consensual BDSM would be hard to work into divorce cases as it involves the couple on both sides. If one side is not consenting, that is outside healthy BDSM as much as any non-consent is for sex of any kind. Of course, if it is discovered someone enjoys BDSM in their private life, obviously I do not feel they should be fired for that. It is just less likely to, well, come up like trying to get one’s spouse insurance and being blocked because they are the same gender.

                              The only sticky point I see are BDSM lifestylists who draw that into their day to day activities. To use an example I saw in college, a man who sits up like a dog when his Dom(me) enters the room (like I say, it was college) should probably not be free to indulge that at work, any more than anyone else should any form of sexplay (unless, you know, work is cool with such, in which case have at). I don’t think it should be illegal or anything, but should have appropriate repercussions. I also know that no one I know who enjoys BDSM among my friends and loved ones engages in such, so it is almost a straw man.

                              So I guess my answer is sorta? I don’t think it needs the same protections but certainly shouldn’t be illegal.


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