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  • Originally posted by nofather View Post

    Much better, though curse you for linking a 30+ minute video without a summary.

    And looking at the numbers for Marvel's comic sales is really misleading because they're weighted with Star Wars comics, which will apparently always sell.
    In my defence, I never feel like watching his videos takes half a hour, but touché.


    Freelancer (He/His Pronouns): CofD - Dark Eras 2, Kith and Kin, Mummy 2e; Scion - Mysteries of the World

    CofD booklists: Beast I Changeling | Demon | Deviant (TBA) | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire | Werewolf (WIP)

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    • I would just like to erase the last seven years of Marvel Comics from existence.

      Now that Axel Alonso's gone, I actually have hope.

      Give me diverse characters. Give me awesome crossovers. But for fuck's sake, give me good writing and art. Giving me comic book writers that actually WANT to write comic books, and not YA novelists who couldn't give a shit.

      And try to keep(and I know is a difficult one in 2018), the politics to a minimum.

      Having Storm take a stroll through Harlem with Black Panther is awesome. Having them comment on how much they dislike gentrification? That's fine, too.

      Having Storm complain about "Whitey" taking over with too many "Mayonnaise" shops opening up in Harlem is something that will 100% save me money(and likely get your series cancelled in 4 issues).


      I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

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      • Originally posted by nofather View Post

        It certainly seems to be pointing at diversity as the big boogeyman that made Marvel comics bad but there is a bit more to it, and the article glosses over it in favor of its own agenda.

        For instance there's a couple points it brings up, 'black writer who has advocated for reparations for slavery and who had no previous comic-book writing experience.' And 'America Chavez is an alien who identifies as a Latina lesbian Feminist. She is written by Gabby Rivera, a Latina lesbian who (again) had no experience of comic-book writing before being given her own series.'

        There's pretty solid points there that go beyond writers with 'a judgmental attitude and a cultural war agenda.'

        There's also little mention of X-men comics, which have arguably been a posterchild for diversity and were thoroughly gutted for the past few years, killing off prized characters, turning others evil and vilifying them while also cutting merchandising for the entire franchise. That's something that only makes it into the article twice, tangentially, 'Iceman was gay,' and 'Wolverine and Hawkeye are women,' the latter of which doesn't mention that 'old' Wolverine is still out there with his own comic. No mention of pushing event after event, extending them more and more with delays, with haplessly jumping onto things like spinning off Deadshot's Mercs for Money into three series. Solo, Slapstick and Foolkiller, which all sold abysmally but at least two of which star straight white male characters (arguable with Slapstick).

        Simply put, this is how Marvel writing works. It's how it has worked for years. Before someone else became Iron Man you had Avengers World, you had Civil War, you had 'amnesia so no one blames him for Civil War.' Before adding Miles Morales there was Peter Parker making a deal with the devil. Before Iceman was outed by Jean Grey you had most of the class of X-men Academy blown up by rockets. Before then you had Ultimatum. Chuck Austen's X-men. It's a series of bad stories, and Marvel isn't even alone in making them. They just haven't corrected themselves yet and the diversity angle is a hot button issue for articles like the one you linked to get easy clicks off of.



        Considering the attitude of the fans towards the writers I can't really blame them if they did hate fans. I've disliked Marvel writers for their writing for a long time and if I was one I probably wouldn't like it either, that's before you throw in the fans who don't like them due to gender, skin color, orientation or other things that don't matter when reading a comic.

        But putting aside your dislike of womens studies professors, does this mean you're going to be getting your Thor comics again now that she's dying, then?
        The article never said diversity was the problem, in fact it pointed out Marvel has always had diversity, it was the heavy fisted, disrepectful of the IP careless SJW approach to diversity that was PART of the problem, not the whole problem.

        As for Thor I used Thor as a useful example, but I was more into the X-Men then the Avengers, its been awhile, I'll wait to see what they have planned. I am open to the possiblity. Its just too early to make promises.

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        • Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
          The article never said diversity was the problem, in fact it pointed out Marvel has always had diversity, it was the heavy fisted, disrepectful of the IP careless SJW approach to diversity that was PART of the problem, not the whole problem.
          The article makes a point to 'never say' anything is actually the problem, even Axel Alonso. It just cherry picks some facts and uses them to imply it repeatedly, even with the section title 'Diversity resistance or political creep?' Every aspect of the article is about a political agenda. But as I and Second Chances' Thorgi pointed out there is more to it than a political issue, while the article doesn't even get into the fact that this is basically how comics work in the first place. Did you see that video? There's no mention in your article about the higher prices of Marvel comics, about the event fatigue, or about the needless new series (unless they have diversity characters).

          I can appreciate small businesses needing help and it takes a lot to start up a store that isn't going to be online friendly, but I'll probably always think artisanal mayonnaise stores are silly.
          Last edited by nofather; 01-02-2018, 02:24 AM.

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          • Originally posted by nofather View Post

            The article makes a point to 'never say' anything is actually the problem, even Axel Alonso. It just cherry picks some facts and uses them to imply it repeatedly, even with the section title 'Diversity resistance or political creep?' Every aspect of the article is about a political agenda. But as I and Second Chances' Thorgi pointed out there is more to it than a political issue, while the article doesn't even get into the fact that this is basically how comics work in the first place. Did you see that video? There's no mention in your article about the higher prices of Marvel comics, about the event fatigue, or about the needless new series (unless they have diversity characters).

            I can appreciate small businesses needing help and it takes a lot to start up a store that isn't going to be online friendly, but I'll probably always think artisanal mayonnaise stores are silly.
            Comic fans have a long history of being willing to pay high prices for comics, admittedly collectors items, but the retailers weren't complaining about the high prices, they were complaining about the issues explored in the article.

            And comic books often have major events going on, that is not enough on its own.

            And you can brush it off as Spiked has its own political agenda, but its the writers and editor in chief that had the agenda, Spiked just wants quality comics.

            BTW Spiked is a leftwing magazine, not some Alt Right rage machine, one of the few voices of reason left on the left, willing to challenge the group think on the left.

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            • Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
              Comic fans have a long history of being willing to pay high prices for comics, admittedly collectors items, but the retailers weren't complaining about the high prices, they were complaining about the issues explored in the article.
              Thorgi is a comic book retailer, he was complaining about these things. Comic books, not trade paperbacks or collections, but comic books that cost ten dollars (technically 9.99) mean people aren't going to be buying a wide variety of comic books. And comic book retailers have been struggling for years now, it's why they so often expand into other products. As Thorgi points out, this is not just a 'comic book' issue, but a print issue. Borders has closed, newspapers are struggling.

              And comic books often have major events going on, that is not enough on its own.
              I never said it was, I listed several other issues along with events and delays with these events. As events have become more common, they've even developed the term 'event fatigue' and Marvel had to promise there would be no big events for a while. Do a search for event fatigue. My first page is nothing but complaints about Marvels events, complete with video links, and there's over thirty-two million results.

              Here's the owner of Big Bang Comics mentioning event fatigue and prices in the same tweet. Because of all the comic book stores in the world I follow the tweets of one in Ireland.

              And you can brush it off as Spiked has its own political agenda, but its the writers and editor in chief that had the agenda, Spiked just wants quality comics.

              BTW Spiked is a leftwing magazine, not some Alt Right rage machine, one of the few voices of reason left on the left, willing to challenge the group think on the left.
              I don't particularly care whether Spiked has an agenda. The article has its own, and is poorly researched besides.
              Last edited by nofather; 01-02-2018, 03:52 AM.

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              • If only the political spectrum was a bianary, discrete thing instead of a multi-axis continuum where you can fall on different places for different issues...

                Seriously Omega, we can tell the perspective from the first couple lines of the article. That's what matters, not where they overall fall on the political spectrum. I tend to agree with the New York Times and Washington Post these days (the former skews closer to my political alignment, but that's a moot point). I still call bullshit on them when they write some poorly thought out science article, usually on GMOs. Your article is trying to point to Marvel's diversity initiative as a cause of declining sales and nofather and I are saying the logic they are using is deeply flawed. Where does the political spectrum enter into it?


                Freelancer (He/His Pronouns): CofD - Dark Eras 2, Kith and Kin, Mummy 2e; Scion - Mysteries of the World

                CofD booklists: Beast I Changeling | Demon | Deviant (TBA) | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire | Werewolf (WIP)

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                • The article did not say the problem was caused by diversity, it said it was caused by careless people with a political agenda, who showed disrespect to the fans.

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                  • The problem was NEVER diversity. It was heavy-handed, clumsily written, obviously pandering ATTEMPTS at diversity, coupled with their excess of clunky, arc-wrecking events. The horrendous art and complete lack of anything resembling a competent editorial staff didn't help, and the whole company's reaction to criticism escalating into an outright hostility toward what USED to be loyal fans was just the cherry on top of the Shit Sundae. If DC were to relaunch the Milestone characters (IPs that were developed in the '90s; almost everyone with powers in Milestone is ethnic) with their top talent, it would probably sell a fair bit better than MOST of what Marvel has crapped out over the last few years. The worst part is, this kind of fanatic behavior only made the Alt-Right rage machines seem sane by comparison. That's what happens when you go to extremes; reasonable people lose interest in your message, because they are repelled by your methods. Calling someone a bigot because they're not 100% onboard with same-sex marriage isn't going to win them over, it's far more likely to harden them against you. That makes it easier for someone else to manipulate that person. Basically, I'm saying that SJWs got Trump elected.
                    Last edited by Mangle77; 01-07-2018, 11:12 PM.


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                    • Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
                      The article did not say the problem was caused by diversity, it said it was caused by careless people with a political agenda, who showed disrespect to the fans.
                      Which is ironic, considering how it is written by a careless person with a political agenda. It also didn't just say that, it clearly makes a point of blaming diversity and the inability of the typical superhero-comic purchaser, 'a 40-year-old white male,' to find escapism and power fantasies appealing in characters with 'unisex clothing, haircuts and facial appearances,' who might be gay, lesbian, bisexual, an ethnic-minority or a female character who is assertively political. It glosses over the inexperience of these writers, as well as the successes of certain other new writers, while playing up their own political beliefs, 'Some writers spend more time on Twitter criticising President Trump than promoting comics.'

                      One of the other issues it talks about is loud activists who, while not customers of fandoms, intrude upon fandom and attempt to force their own agenda upon it. But you can't seriously blame people for that. You just said 'I can deal with a female Thor, I can't deal with a female Thor who sounds like a women studies professor.' then followed it up with expressing disinterest in Thor as a female or male to begin with.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
                        The article did not say the problem was caused by diversity, it said it was caused by careless people with a political agenda, who showed disrespect to the fans.

                        When it comes to the current era of Marvel, there's a personal quote that I like to say: "Make more diverse characters. Don't make more characters diverse."

                        I think the public backlash stems from the fact that Marvel has refrained from trying to create new, original characters and instead is just changing already existing characters, hoping to appeal to a broader audience.

                        A good example of a black character from Marvel is Miles Morales, because he's not a carbon copy of Peter Parker. He took up the mantle of Spiderman, but he has an almost completely original backstory, set of powers, personality and character development. Miles is his own character and continues to be written as such.


                        A bad example of a black character from Marvel is Nick Fury, because he is just straight up Nick Fury as a black man. For those who don't understand, Nick Fury was originally white and had been for decades before they suddenly decided to change him.


                        Another bad example of a diverse character is Jane Foster becoming Thor and (from what I can gather) is just straight up Thor with a woman's body. Meanwhile, the real Thor is off moping somewhere about no longer being deemed worthy of wielding the hammer.
                        Last edited by Nyrufa; 01-07-2018, 02:37 AM.

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                        • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                          A good example of a black character from Marvel is Miles Morales, because he's not a carbon copy of Peter Parker. He took up the mantle of Spiderman, but he has an almost completely original backstory, set of powers, personality and character development. Miles is his own character and continues to be written as such.


                          A bad example of a black character from Marvel is Nick Fury, because he is just straight up Nick Fury as a black man. For those who don't understand, Nick Fury was originally white and had been for decades before they suddenly decided to change him.
                          Nick Fury is a poor example because that's not the case. Ultimate Nick Fury is black because they wanted him to be specifically modelled on the personality and likeness of Samuel L Jackson. Sam Jackson said "okay, you can use my likeness as long as I get to play Nick Fury if he gets a movie." Cue Iron Man. And frankly, between the two Nick Furys, I know which one I enjoy more and it ain't the original.

                          Also, Jane!Thor has been pretty resoundedly applauded as far as I can tell for being an interesting and dynamic character. Right up there with Miles on the "this was a good legacy character" scale. I'm not super plugged into the comic community, so I could be wrong about that, but feel it's overly reductionistic to say diverse characters, even legacy characters, have to be completely original to be successful.


                          Freelancer (He/His Pronouns): CofD - Dark Eras 2, Kith and Kin, Mummy 2e; Scion - Mysteries of the World

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                          • Any fans of Saga around here? I recently read the first 4 volumes and I'd really like to share my enthusiasm with somebody


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                            • Originally posted by Second Chances View Post

                              Nick Fury is a poor example because that's not the case. Ultimate Nick Fury is black because they wanted him to be specifically modelled on the personality and likeness of Samuel L Jackson. Sam Jackson said "okay, you can use my likeness as long as I get to play Nick Fury if he gets a movie." Cue Iron Man. And frankly, between the two Nick Furys, I know which one I enjoy more and it ain't the original.
                              Yeah but in mainstream (Earth-616) they revealed Nick Fury has a son who is black and is just like Nick Fury but black. And then they did that whole shitty Original Sin storyline and Nick Fury is a watcher now or something.

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                              • Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post

                                Yeah but in mainstream (Earth-616) they revealed Nick Fury has a son who is black and is just like Nick Fury but black. And then they did that whole shitty Original Sin storyline and Nick Fury is a watcher now or something.
                                I don't see that as forced diversity though. I see that as ensuring that there is Nick Fury who looks like Sam Jackson in the comics following the Ultimate-verse getting blown up for publicity and advertising purposes. And honestly, I think that Fury Jr's introduction isn't any more melodramatic than any dozen other illegitimate children in DC and Marvel comics. Race doesn't play into it.


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