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  • #16
    Originally posted by Magnum Opus View Post

    I don't always think of myself as a man (because that would be a heavy toll on my cognitive pursszaaaaaaaa-- where was I?) but I do associate with "man" when interacted with, and I am more enclined to do "manly" things than "girly" things (Sewing and Animal Crossing are manly activities, right?)

    I don't divide my activities into Manly and Girly. I play games, read, write, knit, code SQL, curse at linux servers, and waste time on the internet.

    Eh. I need to do more thinking about this.


    I write things.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post
      I'm not sure if this is the best place to ask this, but the comic made me realize something. I'm not even sure how to ask this.

      Do people actually think of themselves as a particular gender all the time? Is being a particular gender so ingrained in your thoughts that affects everything you do?

      Because that comic describes me very well, but I never considered myself agendered.

      I'm not saying this as "there is no such thing as agendered," but rather "well, that may explain a lot."
      It's different for different people. I think trans people tend to be more conscious of our gender more often than cis people are, due to the fact that we are constantly being misgendered. To use an analogy, I don't usually think about the fact that I'm named Andrew. But if someone calls me Andy, or Drew, or something else that isn't my name, it might irritate me for a moment. Fortunately, I can just correct them: "I prefer Andrew, actually." "Oh, ok, sorry." Then we move on. But when you're misgendered, it's not that easy. Imagine everyone always calling you by the wrong name, and when you try to correct them, you get an insistent "you sure look like an Andy to me." Or an indifferent "Well, it's going to be pretty hard for me to remember that." Or an agressive "Stop acting like such a special snowflake, your name is Andy and that's all there is to it!" Maybe if you're lucky, a concerned "Oh my god, I'm soooooooo sorry! I can't believe I misnamed you like that, I feel like such a horrible person. I'm not a namophobe, I swear!" ...You'd probably spend a lot more time consciously aware of your name.
      Last edited by Charlaquin; 12-15-2015, 05:07 PM.


      Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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      • #18
        I just got home! Will start replying soon


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        • #19
          A question that is, perhaps surprisingly, game-related...

          When writing Werewolf: th​e Forsaken 2e, I included a power called Luna's Embrace that simply allows the werewolf to trivially flip sex at will between male and female. It's a full-body biological swap-over, because Luna is strongly symbolically linked with concepts of change and werewolves are supposed to be excellent shape-shifters. When writing it, I was a bit worried that it might be seen poorly by trans people; I was concerned that it might feel like it trivialises all the stuff that many trans people go through. Obviously, I did a sanity-check with other writers and they said it seemed fine, but I've wanted to know how any trans people in the player base feel about it for a while. Poor choice of power to write up? Ambivalence? Happy that it's there?


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          • #20
            Okay I think this thread has pointed towards the right answer and IanW's friends' comic helped too but I just want to make sure. Your sex is what your body is, physically, while your gender is what you identify as?

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            • #21
              Okay trying to hit everyone. If I did not answer a question, draw my attention to it I will try again I just read the whole thing at once. And feel free to ask for clarification.

              Thorbes: For me it took forever. Sometime long ago I decided I wished I was a girl, but accepted my lot otherwise. I met some really cool people on rpg.net, and last year I went to GenCon and actually interacted with Trans women who were incredibly cool. I agonized about it for almost a year after but finally got started and haven't looked back. So realized I wanted to be a girl was probably late teens early twenties. Deciding to transition? Somewhere around forty. I am also a moron.

              JimB: it's fine, this is a place for questions like that. Frankly, it is mostly an intense feeling of disquiet. It is a feeling my body is not right. I do not suffer huge dysphoria myself outside of facial hair, which the sensations I would attribute to it is disquiet and despair. Feeling my face like that really makes me feel, well, like ripping it off. Feeling like it is wrong and I am doomed. Fortunately, shaving is a simple task, even if I am hyper sensitive about it now. Everyone has something they always notice and think is ugly, whether it is grey hairs or a largish nose. I see any stubble, and I want it to go away NOW.

              AzraelFirestorm: I knew I was different as a child. I did not know how. Realized I was trans? 39. As I told Thorbes realized I wanted to be/should be female? 17 or 18? One thing is I was not exposed really to GLBT stuff till college, so one thing that slowed me down as a teen was lack of interest in men. I enjoyed my attraction to women and did not want it to change. Then I realized in college GLBTs were a thing, but I was never around like any trans persons.

              When I was a teen I had an imaginary girlfriend. She was not someone (generally) I fantasized about sexually. Often, I was not even in it, except to account for the fact that she (of course) needed a man. She was confidant, dark, mysterious, witty…everything I wasn’t. Sexy wasn’t even a big part of it. It was the mystique. I did not realize she wasn’t what I wanted to have; she was what I wanted to be.

              Or as a friend pointed out “You always play female characters, you even play female video game characters, you describe your character’s wardrobes, interests, even favorite foods in detail…and this is a surprise for you?”

              Magnum Opus: I…am not the best person to ask about Genderfluid. Since Charlequin is here I will let them field that.

              Erinys: Like Charlequin, I identified as genderqueer briefly, before I accepted being trans. This does NOT mean genderqueer is a phase. Some people (like me) realized they were queer from a gender perspective before realizing they were trans. Some people absolutely fit genderqueer well.

              Dxanders: Absolutely. Ironically, this both helped me and slowed me down in accepting being trans. It helped because I had spent a lot of time thinking of myself as female (in games) and exploring that. It slowed me down because RPGs helped me cope with being in the closet from myself. Twice a week I was a girl, everyone called me she and by a femineine name, I thought about my clothes and juggled my social schedule. It was not enough, but it kept me sane. I just did not realize I was exploring that part of myself, but when I did start to transition, I realized I knew just what sort of look I wanted for myself, what kind of clothes I liked, etc. So it helped me, even if it slowed me down…and it slowed me down by keeping me sane.

              Wonderandawe: I think of myself as female all the time. It does not usually influence my thoughts “I am a girl so I do this” but it does cross my mind. Mostly what I do I do because it is me. As Charlequein says, though, I think trans people are often more aware of it then cisgender people are. But there are plenty of “X is not manly/ladylike” sorts out there.

              Acrozatarim: Does not bother me. Some people would love gender tourism. From a carnal perspective, experiencing sexual intercourse from “both sides” has an appeal. So for me no, it is fine. I am never bothered by gender change stuff though.
              Last edited by Baroness Nerak; 12-04-2017, 05:18 PM.


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              • #22
                Nofather: Generally, yes.

                Of course for trans people it is complicated. For me, my gender is female, my sex at this point I have a mix of male and female traits. My understanding is if you took a blood or saliva sample you would say I was female, or responded to chemical signals. I am not positive but that is my understanding.


                Onyx Path Moderator
                Forum Rules
                This is my mod voice. This is my goth voice.
                [Geist: Balance of Shadows ][ Vampire: The Conspiracy of Hrad Černá Hora ][ Scion: Bohemian Front][Changeling: Malibu Dream House] [Demon: Night Train Detective Agency] [WoD: The Golden Eagle]

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Acrozatarim View Post
                  A question that is, perhaps surprisingly, game-related...

                  When writing Werewolf: th​e Forsaken 2e, I included a power called Luna's Embrace that simply allows the werewolf to trivially flip sex at will between male and female. It's a full-body biological swap-over, because Luna is strongly symbolically linked with concepts of change and werewolves are supposed to be excellent shape-shifters. When writing it, I was a bit worried that it might be seen poorly by trans people; I was concerned that it might feel like it trivialises all the stuff that many trans people go through. Obviously, I did a sanity-check with other writers and they said it seemed fine, but I've wanted to know how any trans people in the player base feel about it for a while. Poor choice of power to write up? Ambivalence? Happy that it's there?
                  I love Luna's Embrace, thank you so much for including it in the game! So does my partner, who is bigender. Far from trivializing trans struggles, it opens up a new avenue for exploring trans experiences in a world of shapeshifters and spirits. Hpw does a trans man react when he learns he is a werewolf and can use his shape shifting powers to transition in a way that is totally safe, reliable, and functional? What about an ostensibly cis werewolf who is surprised to find they're actually more comfortable in a "female body"? How about a werewolf who views Luna's Embrace the same way as the five forms - just one more shape that is no more or less their true form than Urhan or Dalu? (that's my personal favorite as a player). Are there transphobic Ivory Claws that view Luna's Embrace as shameful? More options for exploring sex and gender in the Chronicles of Darkness is always a good thing in my book. Also, Luna's Embrace is handled much better than Transgression of Attis, which was a valiant but flawed effort, in my opinion.


                  Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                  • #24
                    Okay thanks, I knew sex wasn't binary but I tend to be a literal person and wasn't completely sure which the words referred to.

                    Acrozatarim I'm not trans but I've been really thrilled with the facet as well.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Baroness Nerak View Post

                      Dxanders: Absolutely. Ironically, this both helped me and slowed me down in accepting being trans. It helped because I had spent a lot of time thinking of myself as female (in games) and exploring that. It slowed me down because RPGs helped me cope with being in the closet from myself. Twice a week I was a girl, everyone called me she and by a femineine name, I thought about my clothes and juggled my social schedule. It was not enough, but it kept me sane. I just did not realize I was exploring that part of myself, but when I did start to transition, I realized I knew just what sort of look I wanted for myself, what kind of clothes I liked, etc. So it helped me, even if it slowed me down…and it slowed me down by keeping me sane.
                      That's interesting. Are there any games in particular that speak out to you as particularly friendly or more positive towards trans and general LGBQT themes, either in terms of how they're designed or the community they tend to draw? (Feel free to jump in as well here, Charlaquin!)

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                      • #26
                        By the way, for anyone who has trouble grokking the gender/sex/sexuality division, here's an infographic that I find incredibly helpful. It's gone through a few revisions, and I don't know if this is the most up-to-date version available, but it communicates the concept extremely well.




                        Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Acrozatarim View Post
                          A question that is, perhaps surprisingly, game-related...

                          When writing Werewolf: th​e Forsaken 2e, I included a power called Luna's Embrace that simply allows the werewolf to trivially flip sex at will between male and female. It's a full-body biological swap-over, because Luna is strongly symbolically linked with concepts of change and werewolves are supposed to be excellent shape-shifters. When writing it, I was a bit worried that it might be seen poorly by trans people; I was concerned that it might feel like it trivialises all the stuff that many trans people go through. Obviously, I did a sanity-check with other writers and they said it seemed fine, but I've wanted to know how any trans people in the player base feel about it for a while. Poor choice of power to write up? Ambivalence? Happy that it's there?
                          Personally, I was lukewarm on it. "Sex swap" powers have a tendency to essentialise transness and sex and it does that a fair bit - you can magically become the 'opposite' sex (which presupposes that's that's a meaningful thing, right). This is why I usually prefer not to have marked out powers like this unless there's room to really explore the queer aspects of the power in text. Contrariwise it creates the potential for interesting queer stories about bodies and identities, so that's good. It certainly didn't fill me with Eternal Crusading Rage.

                          Nofather: Ish. From certain approaches.

                          The danger of this kind of approach is that it tends to be like "oh you're a trans woman, so like, your gender is woman but your sex is male, right?" and that's not a helpful perspective. Or to frame sex as real/objective/physical and gender as social/subjective.

                          I think you can usefully distinguish between sex and gender, and talk about sex as being about bodies and gender as being about our social selves, with the understanding that these are a) interlinked and b) both socially constructed. You can look at certain aspects of a person objectively - where are their gonads, what are their gametes like, what are their hormone levels - and decide subjectively that this means they're 'male' or 'female' or 'intersex' (which itself is then generally reinterpreted as 'deviant male'/'deviant female') but those are subjective categories we impose on those bodies, not objective facts.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by crabbadon View Post
                            The danger of this kind of approach is that it tends to be like "oh you're a trans woman, so like, your gender is woman but your sex is male, right?" and that's not a helpful perspective. Or to frame sex as real/objective/physical and gender as social/subjective.

                            I think you can usefully distinguish between sex and gender, and talk about sex as being about bodies and gender as being about our social selves, with the understanding that these are a) interlinked and b) both socially constructed. You can look at certain aspects of a person objectively - where are their gonads, what are their gametes like, what are their hormone levels - and decide subjectively that this means they're 'male' or 'female' or 'intersex' (which itself is then generally reinterpreted as 'deviant male'/'deviant female') but those are subjective categories we impose on those bodies, not objective facts.
                            I gotcha, I was more concerned about the definitions of the terms, than labeling anyone with them.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                              By the way, for anyone who has trouble grokking the gender/sex/sexuality division, here's an infographic that I find incredibly helpful. It's gone through a few revisions, and I don't know if this is the most up-to-date version available, but it communicates the concept extremely well.
                              That was very helpful. I didn't realize gender identity and gender expression was two different things.


                              I write things.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post

                                That was very helpful. I didn't realize gender identity and gender expression was two different things.
                                Cool! I'm glad I could help.


                                Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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