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The LGBT Thread II

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  • this just went south real fast...whoops.

    and the whole bisexuality vs. pansexuality thing has always been a bit of a problem because a lot of people have told me that since I'm bisexual I can't be attracted to transpeople or non-binary people because clearly being bisexual means I fall strictly on the binary

    which I kind of think is bullshit. damnit labels.

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    • In contrast, many bisexual people (especially those mindful of the fact that gender isn't binary) defines bisexuality as the sexual attraction to your own and other genders.
      Now, I'd be a fool if I thought the term didn't originate in the idea of binary gender, but that's why we get to repurpose the term to better suit us. I mean, why would someone who fancies two specific spots on the gender spectrum not be able to be attracted to at least those whole fall somewhere between those spots? I believe most bisexual people fulfils the common definition for pansexuality anyway.

      Quick edit: While I have no problem with people who prefer the pansexual label for themselves (after all, the most important part is being comfortable with yourself so go right ahead), I see them as largly interchangeable and I've chosen to use the more common term for myself because it's more practical.
      Last edited by Tessie; 03-19-2017, 05:42 AM.

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      • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
        In contrast, many bisexual people (especially those mindful of the fact that gender isn't binary) defines bisexuality as the sexual attraction to your own and other genders.
        Now, I'd be a fool if I thought the term didn't originate in the idea of binary gender, but that's why we get to repurpose the term to better suit us. I mean, why would someone who fancies two specific spots on the gender spectrum not be able to be attracted to at least those whole fall somewhere between those spots? I believe most bisexual people fulfils the common definition for pansexuality anyway.
        This is why, exactly, I point Pansexual as those having attractions outside of human race. Bisexuals can have many places on Sexuality Spectrum ( almost all, if we go by over scientific definition of spectrum ), but those that come with fantasies for non-human beings, it's outside of Sexual Spectrum. Non-binary people are still humans. Robots and aliens - not on physical level. And sexuality is about physical first.

        I'm not judging anyone for being Pansexual, just pointing to definitions. If you want relation with alien in future we found them - more kudos to you.


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        • Do people who consider themselves pansexual agree with your definition of pansexuality? I mean, I wrote my post from the perspective of someone who is bisexual, discussed the topic with other bisexual people, and read up on it on sites that are created by and for bisexual people, and I still left room in my post for people who consider themselves bisexual without agreeing with my definition of the label.
          Last edited by Tessie; 03-19-2017, 07:59 AM.

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          • Topic of term bisexuality vs pansexuality is literal debate in scientific community. Just see this sum up of debate in Wikipedia page on Pansexuality.

            A literal dictionary definition of bisexuality, due to the prefix bi-, is sexual or romantic attraction to two sexes (males and females), or two genders (men and women).[8][9][15] Pansexuality, however, composed with the prefix pan-, is the sexual attraction to a person of any sex or gender. Using these definitions, pansexuality is defined differently by explicitly including people who are intersex or outside the gender binary.[3][8][9] Go Ask Alice! states that pansexuals can be attracted to cisgender, transgender, intersex and androgynous people, and that the term pansexual "is generally considered a more inclusive term than bisexual."[8] Volume 2 of Cavendish's Sex and Society, however, states that "although the term's literal meaning can be interpreted as 'attracted to everything,' people who identify as pansexual do not usually include paraphilias, such as bestiality, pedophilia, and necrophilia, in their definition" and that they "stress that the term pansexuality describes only consensual adult sexual behaviors."[3]
            The definition of pansexuality can encourage the belief that it is the only sexual identity that covers individuals who do not cleanly fit into the categories of male or man, or female or woman.[2][7][9] However, bisexual-identified people and scholars may object to the notion that bisexuality means sexual attraction to only two genders, arguing that since bisexual is not simply about attraction to two sexes and encompasses gender as well, it can include attraction to more than two genders.[9][16] Gender is considered more complex than the state of one's sex, as gender includes genetic, hormonal, environmental and social factors.[3]Furthermore, the term bisexual is sometimes defined as the romantic or sexual attraction to multiple genders.[9] The Bisexual Resource Center, for example, defines bisexuality as "an umbrella term for people who recognize and honor their potential for sexual and emotional attraction to more than one gender,"[17] while the American Institute of Bisexuality states that the term bisexual "is an open and inclusive term for many kinds of people with same-sex and different-sex attractions"[18] and that "the scientific classification bisexual only addresses the physical, biological sex of the people involved, not the gender-presentation."[16] According to the National Center for Transgender Equality, 25% of American transgender people identify as bisexual.[19]
            Scholar Shiri Eisner states that terms such as pansexual, omnisexual, polysexual, queer, etc. are being used in place of the term bisexual because "bisexuality, it's been claimed, is a gender binary, and therefore oppressive, word" and that "the great debate is being perpetuated and developed by bisexual-identified transgender and genderqueer people on the one hand, and non-bi-identified transgender and genderqueer people on the other." Eisner argues that "the allegations of binarism have little to do with bisexuality's actual attributes or bisexual people's behavior in real life" and that the allegations are a political method to keep the bisexual and transgender movements separated, because of those who believe that bisexuality ignores or erases the visibility of transgender and genderqueer people.[9]



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            • I'd just like to remind everyone that a label is just a placeholder for a conversation. And as for whether straight men can be attracted to other men, I'll remind you all that "I'm straight, not dead" is an acceptable answer.

              Originally posted by wyrdhamster
              I point Pansexual as those having attractions outside of human race.
              I have never heard this definition before. We've sometimes used "Omnisexual" for that, but mostly in jest, i.e. "He'd fuck a couch if he thought it would have a good time."

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              • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                Do people who consider themselves pansexual agree with your definition of pansexuality?
                I, a pansexual person, do not.


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                • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                  Topic of term bisexuality vs pansexuality is literal debate in scientific community. Just see this sum up of debate in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansexuality#Comparison_to_bisexuality_and_other_s exual_identities"]Wikipedia page on Pansexuality[/URL].
                  Nowhere in there does it suggest that pansexuality must include attraction to non-humans, and in fact the quoted section from the Cavendish society would seem to suggest the opposite.

                  When it comes down to it, bisexual and pansexual are often used by different people to mean the same thing. The idea that because bisexual's literal meaning is attraction to two sexes that it excludes people of nonbinary genders is nonsense, but so is the idea that you can't be pansexual unless you're attracted non-humans.

                  Personally, I prefer the term pansexual over bisexual because I have certain qualities I find attractive, and the gender of a person who has those qualities is not a consideration for me. If I was attracted to people of different genders for different reasons, then I would use the term bisexual. But, I know people who feel the same way I do and prefer bisexual. I'm not going to tell them they're wrong about that, because it's their own sexuality and they are free to use the identifier they feel most comfortable with.

                  The fact that there is so much debate about these definitions should be a clear indicator that they do not each have a single, universal meaning. Nor do they really need to because, as etherial pointed out, a label is just a placeholder for a conversation.
                  Last edited by Charlaquin; 03-19-2017, 10:34 AM.


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                  • That'll teach me to post here again, I suppose.


                    Just call me Lex.

                    Female pronouns for me, please.

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                    • My wife similarly considers herself pansexual because she likes certain traits over concern for gender...Though she seems to like females a bit better. I consider myself lesbian, but am in the odd space that hypothetical sex with a guy is not a turn off at all, but I have yet to meet guy 1 I would want to make out with or engage in play with, let alone sleep with.


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                      • Out of curiosity, in the current discourse, how are people with no sexual drive but with romantic needs classified?

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                        • Generally asexual. Some people who are asexual are also aromantic, but it's not a requirement.

                          Edit: When talking about sexuality it's often assumed a person's romantic preferences are the same as the person's sexual preferences. However, that is not necessarily true. Some people are romantically attracted to a larger group of people than they are sexually attracted to, and vice versa. Sometimes those groups don't even overlap. Even when the two labels share the same prefix (for example me; I'm both bisexual and biromantic) it doesn't necessarily mean there's a 100% overlap. The people I'm sexually attracted to are not always the same people I'm romantically attracted to.
                          Last edited by Tessie; 03-19-2017, 12:48 PM.

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                          • Speaking of asexuality and aromanticism, I've seen a lot of tension lately over inusion of people on the a-spectrum (asexual, aromantic, and agender) in queer spaces. Which is ridiculous if you ask me, of course a-spec people should be a welcome inclusion in the queer alphabet soup. I don't know where I'm going with that, just seemed like something worth throwing out there.


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                            • You mean the entire bullshit about whether the A (in LGBTQA and other permutations of the acronym) should stand for ally or ace?
                              I guess it might vary quite a bit, but from my perspective it seems that queer spaces and discourse in general is completely dominated by homosexuality, so I'm not interested in most general lgbt circles at all. Especially considering that they stand for most of the prejudice that specifically targets bi-/pansexuality (in contrast to general homophobia).

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                              • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                                You mean the entire bullshit about whether the A (in LGBTQA and other permutations of the acronym) should stand for ally or ace?
                                I guess it might vary quite a bit, but from my perspective it seems that queer spaces and discourse in general is completely dominated by homosexuality, so I'm not interested in most general lgbt circles at all. Especially considering that they stand for most of the prejudice that specifically targets bi-/pansexuality (in contrast to general homophobia).
                                That's certainly part of it, but I've also seen more active and intentional exclusion of "cishet aces", particularly online. The argument usually goes that if you're cisgender and heteroromantic or heterosexual, then you aren't queer even if you're asexual or aromantic because you benefit from cis and straight privelage and don't face the same predjudices as other queer people and don't need access to the same resources. Which is utter hogwash in my opinion. Just flimsy excuses to try to make people's aphobia look more justified.


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