Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The LGBT Thread II

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
    To not recognize gender as a meaningful difference between people is to not recognize the inequalities that people face because of their gender.
    It's very similar to claims people make that they "don't see color."

    Comment


    • I will just post screenshot of this weekend English Premier League ( football league ) official social media profile...

      ALL major English football teams took Rainbow Colors for this weekend! I will ask about this my English football fan work colleague tomorrow morning.
      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 11-26-2017, 09:51 AM.


      Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
      My Hubs - VtR 2E System Hacks, MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks

      Comment


      • To return to my topic 'it's even worse and worse each day in Poland' - I myself holding up - even when my diet doctor told me to be 'calm and steady' and I ask her 'How duck ( LGBT+ people in Poland ) on the hunt can be calm and steady when hunters ( PiS and extreme rightists ) are standing over her and pointing guns at duck?'

        In Saturday, Nationalists in Katowice 'hanged' on noose pictures of 6 MEPs that vote FOR checking by UE of law and order in Polish judical system. It's still only happening - but it's just to close to hanging real people, in my Point Of View!

        Today I read that two guys from our socialdemocratic party Razem ( eng. Together ) - that I sympathizes and is only party that supports Marriage Equality in it's program, is less than 2 years old and outside Polish Sejm ( i.e. our parliament ) - that those two guys under Razem's banner where beaten on the streets of my home city of Lublin. Just because they are members of 'lefists' party!

        What's even more depressing - in Warsaw, 66-year old man was beaten in the tram just because he was reading Gazeta Wyborcza ( eng. Election Newspaper ) most common daily journal with center-left bent! It's some kind of madness in my homeland!

        If your are in any way connected to opposition forces to PiS government - you can be beat on the streets! It's like my country was moved mentally to the Russia, 15 years ago! Or that we are in Germany in 1930's! It's MADNESS!!!
        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 11-28-2017, 07:37 PM.


        Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
        My Hubs - VtR 2E System Hacks, MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks

        Comment


        • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          I will just post screenshot of this weekend English Premier League ( football league ) official social media profile...
          LGBT+ in sports are sadly not easy to sort...
          There would be no technical issue in having an amab compete in the male category at any game out there. The issue would be a personal one, because she would probably want to compete in the female league... but a born male who reached adulthood normally would have a consistent advantage in many sports if paired with female opponents. Of course there are cases and cases, but on the average her body would be higher and heavier, allowing a better reach in fencing or higher jumps in basket, or just make them harder to pounce off during soccer contrasts.

          Some sports have weight categories (like boxe) so you could sort players without considering their born sex,
          Also, it's worth mentioning that having an amab in the locker room can make people uncomfortable, especially females; it's not a matter of making LGBT+ welcome, but to have an environment where everyone can feel safe and relaxed.

          If your are in any way connected to opposition forces to PiS government - you can be beat on the streets! It's like my country was moved mentally to the Russia, 15 years ago! Or that we are in Germany in 1930's! It's MADNESS!!!
          Your country doesn't seem friendly toward anyone, not only LGBT+. You seem to have around that kind of extremists that puts the whole right-side to shame.
          It's not easy to move your whole life somewhere else, sadly, and even if it were it still wouldn't be right. But, do you express your dysphoria in some visible way? Clothing, lifestyle, anything? I mean, is there any painted target on your back that makes you afraid or it's just because you know they'll be beating you if they found out?
          Last edited by Maris Streck; 12-04-2017, 05:48 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
            Your country doesn't seem friendly toward anyone, not only LGBT+. You seem to have around that kind of extremists that puts the whole right-side to shame.
            Opposition is still not killed on street in Poland - like it's in some African or Asian countries. So there are worse places on Earth. But we clearly slip from European civilization standards, we aspired in last three decades from freeing from CCCP in 1989. I literally been 2 years old when it happened, I just know Soviets rules from the stories of my older brothers immersed in 20th century history - and tales of my parents. But this whole rule of PiS party in Poland - it's just seems wrong. Not only as they are clearly xenophobic and playing to support right extremists. It's like something broke with our idea of the country as general.
            .
            Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
            It's not easy to move your whole life somewhere else, sadly, and even if it were it still wouldn't be right.
            From about last half of the year - from start of massive protests against goverment I joined - I start to think about moving me and my partner to Western Europe, probably Edinburgh. But it's still does not feel right. It feels like letting bastards win with my life. I have family here, my whole life. And we belived that entering European Union will 'civlised' our day to day life...

            Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
            But, do you express your dysphoria in some visible way? Clothing, lifestyle, anything?
            I'm not feeling dysphoria - I'm cis bisex ( geek bear ) guy, not trans. I'm more or less okay with thinking about myself as male. I try to be honest when asked with whom I am or about 'girls' - but I also do not stand with great Rainbow Flag each day. Well, at least not on protests. But I'm affraid we can be at least beaten - me and my male partner - just for living the life we want together, i.e. 'sinful life of homosexuals' as Polish Catholic Church is shouting from their temples and radio. ( Yeah, we have extreme Catholic nationwide radiostation called Radio Maryja. )

            My partner were already beaten under our block 4 years ago - that is 2 years before PiS goverment - and previous ruling party Platforma Obywatelska ( eng. Citizen Platform, PO in short ) did not voted for Civil Unions and Hate Crimes Acts - to not anger our Catholic Church and voters from it. But it still was more 'they lie to us and do not anything for us'. Now PiS goverment is activelly letting nationalists and right extremist to beat the living crap of any minority. They literally send new guidelines to police departments to not look or start any Hate Crimes cases - or even use words like 'tolerance' or 'racism' in their rapports!

            Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
            I mean, is there any painted target on your back that makes you afraid or it's just because you know they'll be beating you if they found out?
            They can try to beat me - I'm 2 meters large, about 200 kilos ( circa 400 pounds ) giant Bear Man, that studied karate for 2 years. But they already beaten my partner few years back - and even I know I cannot win with those 1-2% of countries population that would help them. Not too mention other LGBT+ citizens of Poland that are much smaller than myself. It's all feels like dark joke on Nazists Germany in 1930's or Putin's Russia made in my homeland that was DESTROYED by those forces in II World War.

            Maybe I'm panicking - but I even dreamed about nationalists to put pink triangles on LGBT+ people in country...
            Last edited by wyrdhamster; 11-29-2017, 04:49 PM.


            Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
            My Hubs - VtR 2E System Hacks, MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks

            Comment


            • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
              I'm not feeling dysphoria - I'm cis bisex ( geek bear ) guy, not trans.
              Apologies, I misremembered who was talking about it a few pages back. My bad.

              And we belived that entering European Union will 'civlised' our day to day life...
              Most people in the UE has literally no idea of what's happening in Poland and I expect that even in Brussels people are mostly in the dark. I guess you might try to bring your situation to the UE parliament, maybe with a petition or something... but I wouldn't actually hope too much. I mean, it's not like they did anything real about the Crimean invasion or the Spain revolts, they'll put some economical penality, tops.

              If you have some proof of those guidelines or any discriminatory behaviour it may be useful to send them around though, just to raise awareness.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

                LGBT+ in sports are sadly not easy to sort...
                There would be no technical issue in having a transgender mtf compete in the male category at any game out there. The issue would be a personal one, because she would probably want to compete in the female league... but a born male who reached adulthood normally would have a consistent advantage in many sports if paired with female opponents. Of course there are cases and cases, but on the average her body would be higher and heavier, allowing a better reach in fencing or higher jumps in basket, or just make them harder to pounce off during soccer contrasts.

                Some sports have weight categories (like boxe) so you could sort players without considering their born sex,
                Also, it's worth mentioning that having a transgender in the locker room can make people uncomfortable, especially females; it's not a matter of making LGBT+ welcome, but to have an environment where everyone can feel safe and relaxed.
                Bear in mind hormones and surgery change a lot of that.

                If the transgender person is medically transitioning, a transwoman is notably less strong than a cis man. Many (not all) have broader shoulders than many (not all) women, but strength is the first to go on Estrogen. Similarly a trans man is going to be much stronger than a cis woman, all presuming hormones. As someone on hormones I can tell you my lifting power has notably decreased, and I am notably less strong than I was. Similarly, on hormones weight distribution changes and breasts for trans women appear, so the body shape is less an issue than you might think. Surgery can make some of this more pronounced, especially top surgery for body shape of either sex.




                Onyx Path Moderator
                Forum Rules
                This is my mod voice. This is my goth voice.
                [Geist: Balance of Shadows ][ Vampire: The Conspiracy of Hrad Černá Hora ][ Scion: Bohemian Front][Changeling: Malibu Dream House] [Demon: Night Train Detective Agency] [WoD: The Golden Eagle]

                Comment


                • Strength changes from hormone therapy is far bigger than you might think. And if you try and block trans women, what about cis women who are tall? I had an ex who was the smallest one in her family at 6 foot 5 inches. Humanity has a lot more variation (and I expect in athletes, it's possibly more likely they'll be at seeming extremes) than people think.



                  ​When noise turns to silence, when colors dull and pale, when reality no longer makes sense, there shall you find me. There, in the dreams of the River of Faceless Millions, do I dwell.

                  http://harenm.deviantart.com/gallery/ for my art.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                    Also, it's worth mentioning that having a transgender in the locker room can make people uncomfortable, especially females; it's not a matter of making LGBT+ welcome, but to have an environment where everyone can feel safe and relaxed.
                    And how do you think a trans woman would feel in in a men's locker room? If the goal is to make everyone feel safe and relaxed, no one should be forced into situations where they would feel uncomfortable and unsafe.


                    Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                    My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                    Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by haren View Post
                      Strength changes from hormone therapy is far bigger than you might think. And if you try and block trans women, what about cis women who are tall? I had an ex who was the smallest one in her family at 6 foot 5 inches. Humanity has a lot more variation (and I expect in athletes, it's possibly more likely they'll be at seeming extremes) than people think.
                      Seriously. My boyfriend has been on T for four months now, and his back and arms have Hulked out even doing minimal exercise; a career athlete trans man would easily be competitive.

                      There’s also the matter of the Texas teen trans man last year, forced to compete in the girl’s wrestling league for the state high schools who readily stomped all the competition.


                      Call me Regina or Lex.

                      Female pronouns for me, please.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                        And how do you think a trans woman would feel in in a men's locker room? If the goal is to make everyone feel safe and relaxed, no one should be forced into situations where they would feel uncomfortable and unsafe.
                        “We want the real ladies to feel safe so you can’t be around them. But we promise we care about your comfort too!”


                        Call me Regina or Lex.

                        Female pronouns for me, please.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                          And how do you think a trans woman would feel in in a men's locker room? If the goal is to make everyone feel safe and relaxed, no one should be forced into situations where they would feel uncomfortable and unsafe.
                          Um, isn't that what I said like two lines earlier? That trans women would surely want to change in women's locker rooms and use women's bathroom? =P
                          That's why I said that the issue is not simple. The best solution would be to implement single-man locker rooms, where everyone can go in and change without anyone else looking. "Why not mixed?", well I'll answer in a moment.

                          Originally posted by Baroness Nerak View Post
                          If the transgender person is medically transitioning, a transwoman is notably less strong than a cis man. Many (not all) have broader shoulders than many (not all) women, but strength is the first to go on Estrogen. Similarly a trans man is going to be much stronger than a cis woman, all presuming hormones. As someone on hormones I can tell you my lifting power has notably decreased, and I am notably less strong than I was.
                          Hmm. I've no measurements or projections on trans atheletes' performances to compare with cis-males or cis-females and it's not honestly my field of expertise. I'll gladly let some doctor gather the data and sort out who should be competing where.


                          And if you try and block trans women, what about cis women who are tall? I had an ex who was the smallest one in her family at 6 foot 5 inches. Humanity has a lot more variation (and I expect in athletes, it's possibly more likely they'll be at seeming extremes) than people think.
                          Eeeh, sports categories are not really fair... but I don't even think that being "fair" is an issue in many cases: competitive basket is thought to find out which team is the best in the whole world, no one really cares for the best of junior league or special olympics. We're a specie only interested in seeing who stays on top. :P It may be sad, but that's the whole reason the NBA has more followers than the basket olympics.

                          So yes, we should probably drop all of this men vs women nonsense and adopt a system where categories are defined on different biological basis, like height and muscle mass, but... will anyone watch five different soccer championships? I think they'll just subscribe to the one with the strongest kicks and the biggest players.


                          “We want the real ladies to feel safe so you can’t be around them. But we promise we care about your comfort too!”
                          I'd like you to know that it's not any better for us cis-males. The whole idea of dividing males from females in restrooms and lockers is born on the assumption that the male's natural behaviour is to rape the female or to at least look at her with sleazy eyes; it's really, really insulting, but there's no point in leading a crusade over this because every sexual harassment issue that pings on the news is enforcing the idea that this separation is right.
                          It's also a separation based on body sex and not on the sexual identity, so everyone will just accept lesbians in the women's changing rooms and refuse gay males that won't even feel sexually attracted by them. I think it's kinda plain to see how stupid this system is. =P

                          There are also religious issues to consider and several muslims won't tolerate mixed locker rooms. Yes, we all know how women are oppressed in many of those states but until their culture changes we can't force them in mixed restrooms, it would only persuade them to never have their women attend to international events. That's why I think that individual changing rooms are the most effective solution for the near future.
                          Last edited by Maris Streck; 11-30-2017, 03:05 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Am I suposed to read “it’s not any better for us cis males” without my eyes rolling out of my head?


                            Call me Regina or Lex.

                            Female pronouns for me, please.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                              Hmm. I've no measurements or projections on trans atheletes' performances to compare with cis-males or cis-females and it's not honestly my field of expertise. I'll gladly let some doctor gather the data and sort out who should be competing where.
                              I'll concur with the others: hormones do a lot. My strength has gone down, I can drink noticeably less alcohol before getting drunk, etc.

                              Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                              I'd like you to know that it's not any better for us cis-males. The whole idea of dividing males from females in restrooms and lockers is born on the assumption that the male's natural behaviour is to rape the female or to at least look at her with sleazy eyes; it's really, really insulting, but there's no point in leading a crusade over this because every sexual harassment issue that pings on the news is enforcing the idea that this separation is right.
                              Stating how 'insulting' it is for men that women might dare entertain the thought that they might be ogled or raped, and that this 'crusade' is pointless because of this inconvenience, because it indeed proves that stuff is happening all over the place and all the time? Well... May I advise you to check your thinking, or at least your language? I am sure you mean well, but this kind of phrasing pings hard on the privilege radar.

                              I personally have a different take-away from and reaction to the airing of all these sexual harassment cases. It can be summed up as 'f*****g finally!'. I vehemently disagree that this will enforce the idea of separation. You want women not to be wary around men? Let's start by holding the sleazeballs who mess it up for everyone else accountable for their actions. They have gotten away with this for far too long and there was, still is in most places, little recourse against this kind of behavior!

                              Do you wish to experience just how wide-spread this is? Have a woman you know put on something vaguely sexy (not an actual requirement even) and take a walk in the nearest city. I'm sure she knows the area's which will work best for this experiment. Don't walk besides her, but follow at a discrete distance and just observe. I will be supremely surprised if you would still say that this crusade is pointless.

                              Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                              It's also a separation based on body sex and not on the sexual identity, so everyone will just accept lesbians in the women's changing rooms and refuse gay males that won't even feel sexually attracted by them. I think it's kinda plain to see how stupid this system is. =P.
                              Well, trust me that the separation runs a great deal deeper than simply based on body sex. If you are not a hetero cis and the class/team knows, odds of being unwelcome in such places rise dramatically, which I suppose is why you assert this system is stupid. Sure, individual changing rooms and shower arrangements will help, but that still leaves the underlying fear and discrimination in place.

                              And of course, it would be a very counterproductive solution. The sensibilities and fears of the cis & heteronormative (add white, male & rich to flavor) need no further protecting or pandering to. Society is already set up perfectly to target the minorities and disenfranchised. Erasing and hiding the rich diversity of humanity by pushing the different to the margins of society has been our go-to solution most of history. My personal belief is that this approach is problematic, and we will never move beyond this until we acknowledge and accept both that these differences exist as well as that they are something to embrace, not fear (with the caveat that we must at all times remain intolerant of intolerance itself).
                              Last edited by Angwe; 11-30-2017, 07:51 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
                                Am I suposed to read “it’s not any better for us cis males” without my eyes rolling out of my head?
                                By all means feel free to, I won't mind. But it could just be nice to acknowledge that it's not an issue affecting transgenders only but it's a more broader take on the idea of safety that's encompassing the whole society. Not every LGBT+ battle is meant to be fought by LGBT+ alone and the ideas of comfort, safety and personal space are themes most of the people can agree on, I think.


                                Originally posted by Angwe View Post
                                Stating how 'insulting' it is for men that women might dare entertain the thought that they might be ogled or raped, and that this 'crusade' is pointless because of this inconvenience, because it indeed proves that stuff is happening all over the place and all the time?
                                You read everything and chose to understand only whatever strengthened your biases. I realize you may have cause for that, but can we not have this kind of thing here?


                                I personally have a different take-away from and reaction to the airing of all these sexual harassment cases. It can be summed up as 'f*****g finally!'. I vehemently disagree that this will enforce the idea of separation.
                                Hrm. No.
                                Of course it's good that sexual harassment is punished. Of course broadcasting it on the national TV lets people know that this kind of behaviour is not tolerated and contributes in dissuading potential rapers in harming people. At the same time, though, every time a case of rape is reported every person (males included) believe that their bias on all males being dangerous is justified, thus encouraging the idea of separating the common areas.

                                The "crusade" is pointelss because 1) it would be worse if harassment cases weren't reported, 2) it would be worse if harassment cases weren't broadcasted and 3) there's no way to avoid the growth in caution people feels because of that. It's just a fallout we have to live with.

                                Of course it's an understandable behaviour and I'm not blaming neither the women nor their parents for it, but it also means that both well-meaning cismales and unoperated transgenders won't be allowed in female locker rooms. It's not fair for either of them, but this is how things are going to be until the society changes enough to make women feel safe.


                                You want women not to be wary around men?
                                I actually don't care, it's just a bit insulting to feel included in the same risk category of a raper only because you're a male like him.


                                Well, trust me that the separation runs a great deal deeper than simply based on body sex. If you are not a hetero cis and the class/team knows, odds of being unwelcome in such places rise dramatically, which I suppose is why you assert this system is stupid. Sure, individual changing rooms and shower arrangements will help, but that still leaves the underlying fear and discrimination in place.
                                It's part of the issue, yes: common practice is to put a gay male with other males, but this leads to 1) uneasiness from the other males afraid of causing sexual arousal in the gay, 2) discrimination and bullyism against the gay; on the other side, putting him in the female locker room would make the females feel uneasy just because he still has a penis even if he's not attracted to them in the slightest.
                                But of course putting them all in the same room would only make things worse for the females, therefore the need for personal rooms.


                                And of course, it would be a very counterproductive solution. The sensibilities and fears of the cis & heteronormative (add white, male & rich to flavor) need no further protecting or pandering to.
                                This is a very, very dangerous mindset to have; I think that everyone should be granted the same right to safety, regardless of skin colour, culture or gender. If you want to lead a war to punish white rich males you don't even know then we are definitely fighting different battles.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X