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  • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
    You read everything and chose to understand only whatever strengthened your biases. I realize you may have cause for that, but can we not have this kind of thing here?

    Hrm. No.
    Of course it's good that sexual harassment is punished. Of course broadcasting it on the national TV lets people know that this kind of behaviour is not tolerated and contributes in dissuading potential rapers in harming people. At the same time, though, every time a case of rape is reported every person (males included) believe that their bias on all males being dangerous is justified, thus encouraging the idea of separating the common areas.

    The "crusade" is pointelss because 1) it would be worse if harassment cases weren't reported, 2) it would be worse if harassment cases weren't broadcasted and 3) there's no way to avoid the growth in caution people feels because of that. It's just a fallout we have to live with.

    Of course it's an understandable behaviour and I'm not blaming neither the women nor their parents for it, but it also means that both well-meaning cismales and unoperated transgenders won't be allowed in female locker rooms. It's not fair for either of them, but this is how things are going to be until the society changes enough to make women feel safe.
    Hmm, I have indeed been unclear. What I wished to convey is that what you wrote makes it very easy to interpret as dismissive. 'Crusade' might be better than 'Witch Hunt', but not by much. Feeling insulted because women have to deal with Schrödinger's Rapist is shifting the blame to them.
    • It's not about you
    • You personally are not being blamed
    • All men ever as a whole are not being blamed
    What I disagree with is that smearing it out in the media is pointless. No, this will not make women even more cautious. You see, this is not news to us. You, nad by extension men in general, might feel uncomfortable and shocked. Quite frankly, I hope you/they do.

    What this hopefully will achieve is that women can speak up and will be taken seriously. This would be huge! A truly disturbing percentage of the women I know have been raped, and I won't know about all of them, this topic is still taboo as hell. It is not talked about due to many reasons. To give an indication: two out of the three women I had a long-term relationship with are survivors. Close to 100% of women I know have had very unpleasant encounters. I live in Belgium, hardly a bulwark of conservatism or mysogynie.

    Dragging all of this into the daylight is vital, and what is even more vital is that it shown that this time, when you open your mouth, it is not you, the survivor, that is blamed and made a victim all over again. Let's hope that this trend holds, because all of this is very, very necessary.

    Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
    This is a very, very dangerous mindset to have; I think that everyone should be granted the same right to safety, regardless of skin colour, culture or gender. If you want to lead a war to punish white rich males you don't even know then we are definitely fighting different battles.
    No, that is not my battle and it's certainly not about punishment. As I said just after you stopped quoting: 'Society is already set up perfectly to target the minorities and disenfranchised'. The privileged or their sensibilities do not need protection. It's baked in. The pendulum has to swing back very far before we will need to start considering doing that. Were are making progress, but we are still a fair distance from parity.
    Last edited by Angwe; 11-30-2017, 10:51 AM.

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    • I'm not sure the best way to articulate it, but if there is something that Maris Streck and similar people need to learn it's this. Retreating to paeans to egalitarianism does not make you the voice of wisdom and reason in a sea of confusion. It makes you the person who turns their head and keeps walking when they glimpse something terrible happening to someone down an alleyway. Sometimes it's someone going, "I don't see colour, I don't see race." Sometimes it's THAT guy who, every time some terrible story comes out about what a man did to someone, quips, "Well women can be awful too you know." As if some sort of cosmic balance of awfulness has to be maintained every time we hear that people are horrid to other people.

      Most of the time it's really just someone squirming, uncomfortable that some people are challenging a status quo built on their pain and misery crying out, "How dare you make ME uncomfortable. You're as bad as the people that are hurting you." It's just a negative peace built on the suffering of others you have the privilege to ignore. If you want a dangerous mindset, history is rife with examples of why that desire for a negative peace is dangerous, and unsustainable. Frankly, some of us by dint of personal experience, the shared experience of friends, family, lovers,etc or just simply an awareness, limited but present, of what other people are dealing with are not going to accept that as fine. And would find it an unconscionable notion to entertain.
      Last edited by TyrannicalRabbit; 11-30-2017, 12:56 PM.


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      • Yeah, really not digging the #notallmen vibe here...


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        • More than that, just consider your audience: coming into the LGBT thread and talking about how cis straight dudes suffer too is just completely tacky.


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          • Well, this is the OP forum, so let's not assume any ill-will on behalf of Maris Streck's arguments. Yes, it's a rehash of #not-all-men, #not-me with a side-dish of #erasure and #unexamined-privilege, but let's face it, all SJW's start at level 1.

            While these arguments are well known to most here, for those new to the conversation they are certainly not. Otherwise these classics would not have been turned into memes. Anyway, whether this discussion and the counter-arguments belong in this thread is another matter entirely.

            Perhaps we need a 'Guide to power-leveling your SJW'...

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            • Been thinking about prestige classing into Social Justice Arcane Archer next level.


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              • Women are already very cautious. This will not make them more. Many women, probably most, trans or cis talk about this. We all have to worry about men we meet, because most men don't do anything, and stick up for their friends. And the vast majority of women have at least been harassed if not assaulted. I knew this, pre-transition, but even so I did not know how true it was until transition, and whispered warnings, even anxious ones. And the behavior of some female acquaintances, one in particular, makes so much sense now while it puzzled before.


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                • Originally posted by Angwe View Post
                  What I disagree with is that smearing it out in the media is pointless.
                  But I didn't say this. I said that it's pointless to complain if smearing it out in the media throws a bad shadow over the whole male gender.
                  Aand as I (and several others already) said it's not the place for a SJW discussion here, so let's just stick at this.

                  More than that, just consider your audience: coming into the LGBT thread and talking about how cis straight dudes suffer too is just completely tacky.
                  Then maybe you shouldn't have insulted me by commenting with a phrase that was 100% bias and 0% what I was thinking, because misrepresenting my words is quite tacky too. I never even used the word "suffer" I think. What did I say was that AMABs are kept out from the female locker rooms by the very same fear of males that keeps males out of them.

                  I'm not sure the best way to articulate it, but if there is something that Maris Streck and similar people need to learn it's this. Retreating to paeans to egalitarianism does not make you the voice of wisdom and reason in a sea of confusion. It makes you the person who turns their head and keeps walking when they glimpse something terrible happening to someone down an alleyway. Sometimes it's someone going, "I don't see colour, I don't see race." Sometimes it's THAT guy who, every time some terrible story comes out about what a man did to someone, quips, "Well women can be awful too you know." As if some sort of cosmic balance of awfulness has to be maintained every time we hear that people are horrid to other people.
                  No, well, I'm the voice of reason just because, egalitarianims is not a factor.
                  Also it's not like I don't see race or genders... I only think that it makes no sense to consider a mind as gendered and it would be so much easier to just drop the distinctions (I know it's not realistically going to happen in my lifetime, I don't mind); this doesn't mean that I can't point out how certain personal traits suffer more discrimination than others in the society, it just changes my perspective when I look at them.

                  I didn't even wanted to stand out for the male gender, I only tried to show how the AMABs situation about changing rooms was not a prejudice born to keep mtf trans away from the females but just a legacy from the more general prejudice regarding cis males. I thought it was worth mentioning because it's not like the rich white males are fighting LGBTs specifically on this issue, they're fighting themselves and LGBTs are merely taken in the crossfire.

                  But, for some reason people just started reading as if I wanted to fight for the male honour when it wasn't really my point at all. =P
                  Last edited by Maris Streck; 12-04-2017, 05:47 AM.

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                  • Not to dogpile, but something I'd like to point out.

                    Could you please not use the term 'transgenders'? 'Transgender' is an adjective, not a noun. We are much more than that one part of our experience.

                    Many thanks. <3

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                    • Originally posted by TellMe_TellMe View Post
                      Not to dogpile, but something I'd like to point out.

                      Could you please not use the term 'transgenders'? 'Transgender' is an adjective, not a noun. We are much more than that one part of our experience.

                      Many thanks. <3
                      Yes. This. Calling someone "a transgender" is a slur and will be treated as such going forward.


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                      • On a similar note, the “mtf” or “ftm” language makes me pretty uncomfortable too. Just say trans woman or trans man.


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                        • Just out of curiosity, I'm under the impression mtf and ftm is more of a pseudo-medical term primarily used when referring the type of sex reassignment surgery someone is or was undergoing. Are the terms mtf and ftm are appropriate then or is there something else that should be used when discussing specific types of sex reassignment surgery?

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                          • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                            Just out of curiosity, I'm under the impression mtf and ftm is more of a pseudo-medical term primarily used when referring the type of sex reassignment surgery someone is or was undergoing. Are the terms mtf and ftm are appropriate then or is there something else that should be used when discussing specific types of sex reassignment surgery?
                            Some folks use them and some don’t like them. There’s been a recent shift towards AMAB/AFAB (assigned male/female at birth) because it recontextualizes the idea that you ever used to be something else as what someone else imposed on you.


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                            • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                              Just out of curiosity, I'm under the impression mtf and ftm is more of a pseudo-medical term primarily used when referring the type of sex reassignment surgery someone is or was undergoing. Are the terms mtf and ftm are appropriate then or is there something else that should be used when discussing specific types of sex reassignment surgery?
                              In the context of referring to sex reassignment surgery, it's more acceptable. It's when people use those terms to describe trans people that it's really iffy, because it frames it around sex rather than gender.


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                              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                              • Originally posted by TellMe_TellMe View Post
                                Could you please not use the term 'transgenders'? 'Transgender' is an adjective, not a noun. We are much more than that one part of our experience.
                                Apologies, in my native language the word is substantivized and we don't consider it offensive by itself. Had no idea had an offensive subtext in English and I'll refrain from using it further. I think I'll edit the old posts too just to avoid people stumbling over it by chance.
                                But I'd still like to point out that everyone is so much more that simply a gender. =p

                                Just a curiosity though, isn't what the T in "LGBT+" stands for? Why do you still use a name that refers to your whole community with a bunch of adjectives if it's offensive for you?

                                In the context of referring to sex reassignment surgery, it's more acceptable. It's when people use those terms to describe trans people that it's really iffy, because it frames it around sex rather than gender.
                                Again, I apologise. My local LGBT+ community use the terms quite freely at their meetups and I supposed it was fine.
                                Last edited by Maris Streck; 12-04-2017, 06:05 AM.

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