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The LGBT Thread II

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  • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    Contrary to what we were told as children, bullies and bigots don't go away just because they're ignored.
    *EDIT*

    A video of someone killing a woman in a video game is a symptom of a larger problem, but blowing it up into something major is just going to have the opposite effect. When someone is trolling online in order to provoke a reaction, having it turn into a big news story is simply rewarding them with exactly what they wanted. I'm sure that whoever made the video in question is downright giddy at the widespread attention they got and I'm sure other people are going to look to try to emulate or top him to get a similar response.

    Anyway, this discussion is a bit outside of the thread so I'll bow out here.
    Last edited by AnubisXy; 11-10-2018, 12:34 AM.

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    • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
      I’m not saying genitals aren’t a major factor for a lot of people. I’m saying, clearly there’s more to it than that, since “has a vagina” is not the only criteria for most heterosexual men. It’s jusr one more physical feature some women have that may be a turn on, albeit often a pretty significant one.
      Pretty much. There is a not insignificant number of gynaphilic people not attracted to women with something other than a vagina. But there are a not insignificant number of gynaphilic people not attracted to women over a certain size, over a certain age, of a certain race (or not of a certain race), who are infertile, or even above a certain height. None of those things need something to differentiate them from other heterosexual/homosexual gynophiles.

      The science is in. While we don't have all the answers, the prevailing view among biologists and geneticists around the world is that sex is more complex than genitals. Lots of gynaphiles are fine with that. Some aren't. The good news is more and more younger ones are. I don't judge or look down on anyone not attracted to women without vaginas but respect them as women. I don't think that is transphobic. I am, however, suspicious of people who announce on the internet* they are not attracted to women without them. Or, say, women of a certain size**. Now you are kinda putting them down.

      *Not ask questions, mind. I have fielded earnest "I am not transphobic if...am I?" a few times from earnest people who were legitimatly concerned.

      **For the record, I am fine with whatever configuration, and fine with big girls





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      • Also, like.

        If the argument is that orientation should be genital-based, then you’re really gonna say a heterosexual man should be all over trans dudes? That’s bad to all parties involved.


        Call me Remi. Female pronouns for me, please.

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        • A lot of more bigoted types really do not seem to understand trans dudes exist. Like they talk about men in women's restrooms, when they are literally trying to legislate to force men into women's restrooms!


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          • Well, a few things. to me, I see "tolerance" as bad if you mean putting up with things you don't like. It should be understanding a bigger picture and while different beliefs are going to impact everyone's life on some level, it's not like that stops you from living yours

            Could also break down a person by their permutations, might make it all easier to absorb" Biology, Identity, Preferences, Parameters

            Biology: External

            Identity: how I operate

            Preferences: The Identity(s) I want in a partner

            Parameters: cosmetic specifics, hair color, eye color, hobbies, etc

            The idea is a lens to appreciate differences, dunno if those four things are objectionable, but hope the idea of understanding the makeup of a person is agreeable

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            • In Poland – Our President from Law and Justice party ( PiS in short in Polish ) is ‘interested’ in ban on ‘homosexual propaganda’. The same law idea as is now in Russia! I’m… shattered. If PiS wins next year 2019 elections second time – I move from Poland. Probably to Scotland, as their government now started project for the mandatory education for LGBT+ in schools.

              Polish source on ‘homosexual propaganda’ idea - http://wyborcza.pl/7,75398,24150736,...eksualnej.html


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              • There have been a lot of straw man arguments thrown up in the past few days. I have never said that heterosexuals are automatically attracted to all members of the opposite sex. Of course people have individual preferences. Even pansexuals would not necessarily be attracted to every person they meet. However, it is absurd to argue that preference for larger or smaller noses is equivalent to the absence or presence of certain genitals.

                Also, I have never stated that genitals are the only determinant of biological sex. There are many characteristics which are determined by biological sex, many are visible to the unaided human eye and many are not. However, I think it is naïve to not see that ciswomen and transwomen are different in significant ways. Those differences can be reduced with medical interventions, but never erased.

                I think there is a fundamental difference between the campaign for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and asexual rights. Their basic premise was to eliminate discrimination in the public sphere (ie: housing, hiring, public accommodation) and to end hate-motivated violence. The end game is to establish a live and let live situation. I am 100% on board. I am 100% on board for these same goals for transpeople, as well.

                The disagreement I have with the trans rights movement is that transpeople require the population at large to participate. If a gay or lesbian asks a straight person on a date and is rejected because of sexual preference, they move on and find a mate who shares their preference. On the other hand, someone who doesn’t want to date or have sex with a transperson is labeled a transphobe.

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                • Originally posted by figurehead View Post
                  There have been a lot of straw man arguments thrown up in the past few days. I have never said that heterosexuals are automatically attracted to all members of the opposite sex. Of course people have individual preferences. Even pansexuals would not necessarily be attracted to every person they meet. However, it is absurd to argue that preference for larger or smaller noses is equivalent to the absence or presence of certain genitals.

                  Also, I have never stated that genitals are the only determinant of biological sex. There are many characteristics which are determined by biological sex, many are visible to the unaided human eye and many are not. However, I think it is naïve to not see that ciswomen and transwomen are different in significant ways. Those differences can be reduced with medical interventions, but never erased.

                  I think there is a fundamental difference between the campaign for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and asexual rights. Their basic premise was to eliminate discrimination in the public sphere (ie: housing, hiring, public accommodation) and to end hate-motivated violence. The end game is to establish a live and let live situation. I am 100% on board. I am 100% on board for these same goals for transpeople, as well.

                  The disagreement I have with the trans rights movement is that transpeople require the population at large to participate. If a gay or lesbian asks a straight person on a date and is rejected because of sexual preference, they move on and find a mate who shares their preference. On the other hand, someone who doesn’t want to date or have sex with a transperson is labeled a transphobe.
                  What is romantically/sexually screening out trans people on basis of their gender if not transphobia?


                  Call me Remi. Female pronouns for me, please.

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                  • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                    In Poland – Our President from Law and Justice party ( PiS in short in Polish ) is ‘interested’ in ban on ‘homosexual propaganda’. The same law idea as is now in Russia! I’m… shattered. If PiS wins next year 2019 elections second time – I move from Poland. Probably to Scotland, as their government now started project for the mandatory education for LGBT+ in schools.

                    Polish source on ‘homosexual propaganda’ idea - http://wyborcza.pl/7,75398,24150736,...eksualnej.html
                    Jesus, Wyrd. That's awful to hear. I hope those bastards get voted the hell out next year.


                    Raksi plays Peek-a-boo for keeps. ~ nalak42

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                    • Originally posted by figurehead View Post
                      There have been a lot of straw man arguments thrown up in the past few days.
                      This being the worst example:

                      Originally posted by figurehead View Post
                      If a gay or lesbian asks a straight person on a date and is rejected because of sexual preference, they move on and find a mate who shares their preference. On the other hand, someone who doesn’t want to date or have sex with a transperson is labeled a transphobe.
                      Someone who doesn't want to date or have sex with an individual transgender person is not automatically a transphobe. There are any number of non-transphobic reasons a person might not want to date or have sex with a transgender person. Heck, I'll even say, "I find [insert genitals here] to be a turn off" is among them. However, not counting trans women as women or not counting trans men as men for the purpose of sexual orientation is transphobic. There is nothing about these two statements that contradict each other.


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                      • I don't think it's transphobic for someone to go, "I don't find vaginas sexually attractive or arousing, and I wouldn't be capable of having a fulfilling sexual relationship with someone who has a vagina. Having a fulfilling sex life is a very important part of a relationship, and therefore I'm not interested in dating anyone who has a vagina," (change vagina to penis if you wish). Biology (both yours and your partners) plays a huge role in determining who and what people will be sexually attracted to. And I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with screening potential dates or life partners based on your ability to have a fulfilling sex life with them.

                        Ultimately if someone isn't attracted to vaginas, it likely doesn't matter whether the vagina is on a man or a woman, and nobody should feel shame about screening potential dates based on their genitalia, nor should they feel obligated into entering into a relationship that they won't find sexually fulfilling.
                        Last edited by AnubisXy; 11-12-2018, 12:13 AM.

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                        • Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
                          What is romantically/sexually screening out trans people on basis of their gender if not transphobia?
                          I guess that depends on what you mean by the word transphobia. If you are using it to mean a form of bigotry then I do not think it is transphobic at all. Is it femalephobic for a gay male to exclude females from his potential dating pool? Is it malephobic for a lesbian female to exclude males from her potential dating pool?


                          @Charlaquin: It’s not a strawman. It was one of the first arguments made in response to my post.

                          Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                          From a practical point of view it would make much more sense to use an identifier for someone who is exclusively attracted to a certain biological sex rather than attraction to gender. I propose transphobe.

                          To reiterate my first post, I don’t care who dates whom as long as all parties are consenting adults (or within reasonable ages of one another if teenagers.) However, males dating males and females dating females are not, by definition heterosexual, even if one of them happens to be trans.

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                          • Originally posted by figurehead View Post
                            Is it femalephobic for a gay male to exclude females from his potential dating pool? Is it malephobic for a lesbian female to exclude males from her potential dating pool?
                            The difference is, they don't implicitly invalidate the gender of the people they exclude from the dating pool.

                            Originally posted by figurehead View Post
                            @Charlaquin: It’s not a strawman. It was one of the first arguments made in response to my post.
                            Really? Then by all means, quote the post where anyone but you has said that someone who doesn't want to date or have sex with a transgender person is a transphobe. I'll wait.

                            Originally posted by figurehead View Post
                            males dating males and females dating females are not, by definition heterosexual, even if one of them happens to be trans.
                            Trans women are not males. Trans men are not females.
                            Last edited by Charlaquin; 11-12-2018, 01:06 AM.


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                            • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                              I don't think it's transphobic for someone to go, "I don't find vaginas sexually attractive or arousing, and I wouldn't be capable of having a fulfilling sexual relationship with someone who has a vagina. Having a fulfilling sex life is a very important part of a relationship, and therefore I'm not interested in dating anyone who has a vagina," (change vagina to penis if you wish). Biology (both yours and your partners) plays a huge role in determining who and what people will be sexually attracted to. And I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with screening potential dates or life partners based on your ability to have a fulfilling sex life with them.

                              Ultimately if someone isn't attracted to vaginas, it likely doesn't matter whether the vagina is on a man or a woman, and nobody should feel shame about screening potential dates based on their genitalia, nor should they feel obligated into entering into a relationship that they won't find sexually fulfilling.
                              100% Agreed! There is also nothing about this that contradicts Regina's assertion that screening out trans people based on their gender is transphobic.


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                              • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                                Really? Then by all means, quote the post where anyone but you has said that someone who doesn't want to date or have sex with a transgender person is a transphobe. I'll wait.

                                I just did quote it. Tessie said it and I quoted it in the post you just responded to. Right above yours. Post #807.

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