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Counting Time in kingdoms of Pugmire and Mau

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  • Counting Time in kingdoms of Pugmire and Mau

    When I run my RPGs, flow of the time is important. Especially in chronicles days, weeks and months in order gives context to the events of the play. 'Wow, we did this all in one month only!' or 'In four days we must be in Royal Palace!' - Without proper Beginning, there is no real End to the story.

    With that introduction, let's go deep to the thread subject - Are there calendars in kingdoms of Pugmire or Mau? Do dogs use our Twelve Months and remember that most are 30 and 31 days long, with February being only 28 long? Or maybe cats are using Lunar Calendar of their own making? Do they use our own names for days, weeks and months? Or did they invented their own?

    Do dogs and cats are aware of hours? Do they built clocks on their city halls? In our world clock towers started to show up in 15th century in Italy - that Monarchies of Mau is emulating. Do Church of Man follows their lives with Liturgy of Hours, marking each new part of day as pray from it - like in Medieval times whole Latin Europe did?

    Do the Pugmire and Mau have official chronicles? Do they have idea of counting years and 'year 1', then? Like 'In year 1 of Pugmire, coronation of our first proper king - Vinsen Pug II - started officially kingdom of Pugmire'.

    Then would be question - How many years passed from year 1 of Pugmire? How much from year 1 of Mau?
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 11-06-2018, 04:55 AM.

    My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
    LGBT+ through Ages
    LGBT+ in CoD games

  • #2
    The default answer is probably: Whatever's best for your game. A lot of this stuff isn't specifically addressed because it's not essential and there's no reason to set things in stone rather than let groups pick what makes the most sense for how they see the world.

    My interpretations?

    Calendars? Yes, absolutely. The level of societal sophistication presented would require a standardized calendar system at least within each nation. They don't follow the modern European calendar, but do have a solar calendar (since they're presented as being in a temperate zone climate-wise, solar calendars are essential for planning crops). They simply number the months and days rather than having specific names for them, though scholars and the Church of Man likely know some of the secret and holy names used by the Old Ones (this just avoids me having to come up with names).

    Hours? Sure. Clocks might be relatively recent human inventions, dividing the day up into units is ancient because it's practical. Man standardized hours in the distant past, and enough relics show that Man divided the days and nights into 24 hours a day. Hourglasses and sundials are probably far more common than clocks, but town clocks are probably a thing.

    Chronicles? This seems to be an official thing even if not detailed. Dogs and Cats definitely have historians and histories... so chronicles would be part of that tradition. The Kingdom of Pugmire probably does use the coronation of the first king (Vinsen II btw, not his father) as the start of it like that.

    How many years have pasted? No clue, don't really care. Pick a year and go with it. Should probably be high enough to account for a few periods of history as implied by the presented settings (and Dogs and Cats probably do not use the same starting year since their societies started over different events); a century at a minimum.


    • #3
      It's practical of course to follow the system we humans us now, but yeah, could be not enough of the ones with dogs and cats we hang on our walls now survived to set the standard, and if any did, would the pictures confuse them enough to not trust them for use?

      Any number of other systems could come in to play. A lunar system with a extra set of days would work, solar season clocks like Stonehenge, maybe a 4 season clock starting with the solstices and Equinoxes and filler days until the next season starts so could be extra days 4 times a year

      Any number of things could be plausible, but our 12 month system would certainly be easiest
      Last edited by Willowfang; 11-06-2018, 08:17 PM.


      • #4
        Have you checked out Pugmire, pp. 139-140? Some of your answers are there!

        "Time and money share a common theme within dog society: Neither concept is very precise."

        [cut money section]

        "Dogs have generally adopted the concept of a 24-hour day from Man, but they still haven’t mastered the Old Ones’ magic to track the passage of time with any accuracy. Thus, dogs use several very rough units of time. A day is the time from one sunrise to the next. Morning is the time when the sun is rising in the sky, evening is when the sun is lowering in the sky, and night is when the sun is gone. An hour is any length of time where the sun or moon is seen to move in the sky, but isn’t a full change from morning to evening, evening to night, or night to morning. A wag is a moment or other very brief unit of time — however long it takes for a dog to wag their tail back and forth once. (Dogs with longer tails generally have longer wags than dogs with shorter tails, and those dogs without tails just guess.)"

        ​Beyond that, I haven't elaborated, and as Heavy Arms says, I intentionally let a lot vague so individual chronicles can decide on their own answers.


        • #5
          The cats in Mau section is similar to dog one in Pugmire, but pointing that cats may have slightly better understanding of time ( MoM, page 155 ):

          'Time is also not measured in precise intervals, though cats are slightly more accurate than dogs at measuring it. A day lasts from one sunrise to the next. Morning is when the sun rises in the sky, and evening is when it lowers. Night is when the sun is gone. During the day, cats measure hours about the same way dogs do: when the sun has moved noticeably in the sky, but less than a full change from morning to evening, or evening to night. At night, however, cats can measure the passage of an hour more precisely. They have observed the movement of stars against the sky, and worked out a way to calculate the time based on where the constellations appear.

          Like dogs, cats have yet to figure out time on a more granular scale. The only unit of time shorter than an hour is a twitch, which is a bit shorter than a dog’s wag, but is still based on the movement of one’s tail.'

          Twitch seems to imply a real count of 1 second as we understand it.

          My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
          LGBT+ through Ages
          LGBT+ in CoD games


          • #6
            I'm not sure I'd trust a twitch to be a true second, to be honest.


            • #7
              Reading how cats are curious, driven to understand and disassembling Masterworks of Men - I can totally see that cats uncovered our modern calendar. Corebooks of Pugmire and Mau point that tablets are day to day in usage by researchers in Arcana in both dogs and cats societies. Our tablets shows calendars, so usage of idea is more than plausible. Cats maybe only started to build clock towers in cities, but calendars could be used around whole Monarchies of Mau, simply because tablets and mobile phones are uncovered from decades now.

              Question then is from WHAT date cats could count years? My proposition is for two things about calendars - first, to use Treaty of Unification as year zero - it seems logical for Mau to treat it as start of dating, with unifying Monarchies. Second, to use in games our modern, real world, present dates, this year calendars.

              You will question probably why - it's because all our digital calendars start the count from 'Internet era' - i.e. date 1.1.1970 - and any electronic device after factory reset return to this date. Cats researchers and 'mathematicians' of cats simply would do factory reset on singing the Treaty moment.

              And from (almost) 2019 till 1970 we have nice 49 years - more or less the time that should pass from Treaty of Unification till modern times in Mau described in corebook. ( It hails from pointing that Trillani von Mau that made Unification died last year and that she lived very long for a cat - circa 68 years sound as such - MoM corebook, page 151 )

              AutoDefenestrate, If wag is wagging dog's tail, it's takes two moments ( wag to left, wag to left ). Cat's twitch is logical it's half of this time, so it's natural it's our 1 second. With mobile devices used by elite, it's more than possible that cats are introducing seconds in their daily lives - at least Old Ones researchers.
              Last edited by wyrdhamster; 07-05-2019, 07:16 AM.

              My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
              LGBT+ through Ages
              LGBT+ in CoD games


              • #8
                Eh, within Pugmire there's specific mention that dogs with longer tales have longer Wags and vice versa for those with short tails. There isn't a defined length to a Wag, at least in my games. While MoM says that a Twitch is shorter than a general wag, but also being based on the movement of the tail. While I can see what you're saying about Cats potentially finding and using electronic timepieces that's not where I would lead my games. In fact, though a Twitch is shorter than a Wag I'd have Cats be less accurate in their moment to moment timekeeping. Have you ever watched a cat twitch their tail? 10 count? 1, 2, 3, 4... 5, 6, 7... 8, 9, 10. Maybe not so bad when they're really trying to keep time, but in general.


                • #9
                  Combining some history & some knowledge of pets, I would expect almost everyone to use "time relative to when something interesting happened". Romans had ideas like "the year when Alice and Bob were consuls" and "5 days after the festival of Charlie." For my dogs, there is "when I start hoping dinnertime has arrived", "the last time I went to the park", "that one time I had a really good sniff" etc. Under normal circumstances, minute precision just isn't that important.

                  But, I think historians, law-knowers, and such specialists would use numbered years. Folks like adventurers who need to accurately count short intervals would come up with tricks that work for them.

                  "Okay people I can do 10 slow wags, and that time is 5 wags for Bubba and 13 for Princess. Let's practice, I'll need you to attack 10 wags after I charge if we're going to take down the vac-oom." Cue lots of dogs startng at each other's wagging tails.


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SpoonR View Post
                    "Okay people I can do 10 slow wags, and that time is 5 wags for Bubba and 13 for Princess. Let's practice, I'll need you to attack 10 wags after I charge if we're going to take down the vac-oom." Cue lots of dogs startng at each other's wagging tails.
                    I like it - room for some comical missteps and player interaction. I would try to avoid any catastrophic consequences, but will use this in my game.


                    • #11
                      Also note that, as some of the fiction has mentioned, when dogs get excited their wags get a lot shorter. So even if a given dog has a standard "60 wags per minute" that can easily change depending on the circumstances, which makes it really hard to standardize.

                      Ian A. A. Watson
                      Onyx Path Community Manager
                      Trinity Continuum Content Lead