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Arms of the Chosen Questions - Any Open Development?

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  • #31
    Arms is double extra especially not getting the open dev treatment because we've had several rounds of this happen:

    "I have a brilliant idea!" "Well, lay it on me." "Okay, it's like this." "Holy shit, that IS brilliant. OK, let's write some artifacts and see how it shakes out." *Artifacts are written* "Okay, we kind of ran all the potential this had dry after two artifacts, and the second one shows serious structural issues. We need to scrap this and do something else." "Yeah. But I have another idea. It's like this--" "Holy shit, that's really clever." "Yeah but it has this one problem." "Well, we can probably work that out, let's mess with it." "Okay, we've burned three weeks trying different things and that core problem appears insoluble." "Son of a bitch. Back to the drawing board."

    Or, in short: Martial Arts Techniques taught us not to preview things until we are positive we can deliver them.


    Exalted co-developer.
    Currently Developing: Arms of the Chosen, The Realm, Dragon-Blooded: What Fire Has Wrought
    --
    Holden Reads the entire classic World of Darkness
    Follow my Exalted ramblings on Twitter.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by SpruceStripedGoose View Post

      ...

      When the question came up around dealing with BBEGs being ganged up on to steal their initiative before they could use it, his response was more along the lines that the viewer wasn't playing the game right. But I so strongly disagree with this, yes in any rpg there is a element of player restraint, but I don't think it is wrong to capitalize on a obvious low hanging mechanical tactic like a dog pile, and I especially think you need to be more understanding when this issue is arising because the vision you so clearly have, simply hasn't been communicated. If these concessions are so critical to playing the game "right" they need to be outright stated or even mechanically enforced, and if they haven't been (which I would argue is the case) you need to be understanding of and have solutions for players falling into the hole you dug.
      To be fair that was his knee-jerk response. Right after that he ammended it by saying it was ok to gang up on the big bad, and even said he'd do it / does it also. And that wasn't wrong.

      I came out with the impression that his position is "that is just how this works out, and that is fine."


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      • #33
        Originally posted by Holden View Post
        Arms is double extra especially not getting the open dev treatment because we've had several rounds of this happen:

        "I have a brilliant idea!" "Well, lay it on me." "Okay, it's like this." "Holy shit, that IS brilliant. OK, let's write some artifacts and see how it shakes out." *Artifacts are written* "Okay, we kind of ran all the potential this had dry after two artifacts, and the second one shows serious structural issues. We need to scrap this and do something else." "Yeah. But I have another idea. It's like this--" "Holy shit, that's really clever." "Yeah but it has this one problem." "Well, we can probably work that out, let's mess with it." "Okay, we've burned three weeks trying different things and that core problem appears insoluble." "Son of a bitch. Back to the drawing board."

        Or, in short: Martial Arts Techniques taught us not to preview things until we are positive we can deliver them.
        That is certainly pretty reasonable especially considering that Evocations are still new and quality takes time. Thanks for explanation! I am content to wait as long as needed as long as I get my giant robot-golem-armour with superpowers at the end of it.
        Last edited by Gigaton-Falcon-Emu; 11-25-2016, 12:40 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Holden View Post
          Arms is double extra especially not getting the open dev treatment because we've had several rounds of this happen:

          "I have a brilliant idea!" "Well, lay it on me." "Okay, it's like this." "Holy shit, that IS brilliant. OK, let's write some artifacts and see how it shakes out." *Artifacts are written* "Okay, we kind of ran all the potential this had dry after two artifacts, and the second one shows serious structural issues. We need to scrap this and do something else." "Yeah. But I have another idea. It's like this--" "Holy shit, that's really clever." "Yeah but it has this one problem." "Well, we can probably work that out, let's mess with it." "Okay, we've burned three weeks trying different things and that core problem appears insoluble." "Son of a bitch. Back to the drawing board."

          Or, in short: Martial Arts Techniques taught us not to preview things until we are positive we can deliver them.
          I can see that occurring considering all the issues I had trying to make diverse concepts for the 20-odd homebreak artifacts I've made at this point. So after all those iterations, are you confident in your core design at this stage, or is it still going through some iterations? Just curious.


          I post Artifacts in this thread. How I make them is in this thread.
          I have made many tools and other things for 3rd Edition. I now host all of my creations on my Google site: The Vault of the Unsung Hero

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Holden View Post
            Or, in short: Martial Arts Techniques taught us not to preview things until we are positive we can deliver them.
            I was excited for those when I first heard about them, but darn would it have been a nightmare to make interesting and keep balanced. Folding them into gambits was 100% the right way to go.


            Supernal Athletics.mp4

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Steamfunk View Post

              I was excited for those when I first heard about them, but darn would it have been a nightmare to make interesting and keep balanced. Folding them into gambits was 100% the right way to go.

              Yeah. I watched about five different talented homebrewers roll up their sleeves and try to go in and solve the problem after we cut Techniques. All of them ended up throwing in the towel, citing the same variety of problems we did.


              Exalted co-developer.
              Currently Developing: Arms of the Chosen, The Realm, Dragon-Blooded: What Fire Has Wrought
              --
              Holden Reads the entire classic World of Darkness
              Follow my Exalted ramblings on Twitter.

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              • #37
                By the way, Holden, is there any chance of there being more magical sailing ships in the upcoming book?

                Don't get me wrong, I love the Folding Ship, but I've steered away from it in my game because it removes quite a bit of the incentive for a captain to have actual sailors on her ship, and half the fun in my Okeanos game is the gaggle of misfits serving under our intrepid captains.

                I've made up a few magical warships for my game, and it's been something of a tricky balancing act.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Holden View Post


                  Yeah. I watched about five different talented homebrewers roll up their sleeves and try to go in and solve the problem after we cut Techniques. All of them ended up throwing in the towel, citing the same variety of problems we did.
                  I did 3 different versions with 3 different premises. The scale just cannot handle it from a gameline perspective. There just isn't enough room down there. Trust me, I even invented new mechanics to CREATE the space between +1 die and +2 dice, but.. you know... why? When it really comes down to it... why? The game is *Exalted*. That's not why I gave up, but that is ultimately the truth.


                  Incentive is not permission or justification.

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                  • #39
                    I don't think Exalted necessarily needs open development, but it for darn sure needs to let the community take a pass through the text before it goes to publication, for the simple reason that the 3e Core had multiple Charms and systems that were poorly referenced, weren't referenced, or that tried to refer back to mechanical systems that weren't in the game anymore or weren't defined. I'm not talking "this Charm is unbalanced" which is a subjective matter, I'm talking "this Charm uses terminology that's straight-up undefined."

                    Or maybe not the community as a whole, but it seems like a non-trivial number of people who have never, ever laid eyes on the text before (ten or twenty or so?) should take a good hard look at these things before the trigger is pulled. Fresh eyes and all that. People who haven't internalized everything and who can go "Uh... what does this do?" and have the writers go "Well, it does X, using system Y." "... where is system Y defined?" "... shit."

                    That kind of seems like it didn't happen with the Core.


                    "SEX NOVA is the kind of person who, after being chosen as the divine champion of the god of heroes, decided to call himself SEX NOVA."

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                      I don't think Exalted necessarily needs open development, but it for darn sure needs to let the community take a pass through the text before it goes to publication, for the simple reason that the 3e Core had multiple Charms and systems that were poorly referenced, weren't referenced, or that tried to refer back to mechanical systems that weren't in the game anymore or weren't defined. I'm not talking "this Charm is unbalanced" which is a subjective matter, I'm talking "this Charm uses terminology that's straight-up undefined."

                      Or maybe not the community as a whole, but it seems like a non-trivial number of people who have never, ever laid eyes on the text before (ten or twenty or so?) should take a good hard look at these things before the trigger is pulled. Fresh eyes and all that. People who haven't internalized everything and who can go "Uh... what does this do?" and have the writers go "Well, it does X, using system Y." "... where is system Y defined?" "... shit."

                      That kind of seems like it didn't happen with the Core.

                      Er.. it kinda did, when backers got a copy of the core. The only example I can find of what you're talking about here is animal training rules being found in the text of a Survival charm, which is an editing error that the book's editor has talked about a bit. Otherwise, this thing where the game isn't functional because none of the rules exist is.. I don't get it. I don't mean to imply that you're lying here, but all I can really say is that it's just not true.

                      Given that future books will be much less than 700 pages long, and that the big ones (splats, anyway) will most likely have associated Kickstarter editions and early .pdfs being sent to backers for proof-reading/playing, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

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                      • #41
                        I think demanding anything is sort of missing the point. Previews of things which might require less intensive playtesting (Like fluff or things which they feel are pretty settled) would be a lovely way to rebuild hype, but of course, there's only so much time in a day. I hope there's a point where such things might be possible, but they aren't integral.

                        Stephen mentioned the bit about training animals, but it's worth noting that it shows up in the section where the Animal QCs are, so it's like, also right next to the stuff you'd use it on.


                        Leetsepeak's Ex3 Homebrew Hub - Hub of homebrew for Exalted 3rd Edition that I've made.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                          I don't think Exalted necessarily needs open development, but it for darn sure needs to let the community take a pass through the text before it goes to publication, for the simple reason that the 3e Core had multiple Charms and systems that were poorly referenced, weren't referenced, or that tried to refer back to mechanical systems that weren't in the game anymore or weren't defined. I'm not talking "this Charm is unbalanced" which is a subjective matter, I'm talking "this Charm uses terminology that's straight-up undefined."

                          Or maybe not the community as a whole, but it seems like a non-trivial number of people who have never, ever laid eyes on the text before (ten or twenty or so?) should take a good hard look at these things before the trigger is pulled. Fresh eyes and all that. People who haven't internalized everything and who can go "Uh... what does this do?" and have the writers go "Well, it does X, using system Y." "... where is system Y defined?" "... shit."

                          That kind of seems like it didn't happen with the Core.
                          Honestly, I think that sort of thing is more of a matter of the Corebook being 700 pages long. I'm gonna put a stake in the ground and say that it is basically impossible to take a book that huge and catch absolutely everything. Especially since some of the stuff is subjective and some of the issues are non-obvious.


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                          • #43
                            It's doubtful that Arms is going to have much of this issue when it is, what, sixty pages long?


                            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                            Watch me play Dark Souls III (updated 02/03)
                            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Andrew D View Post


                              Er.. it kinda did, when backers got a copy of the core. The only example I can find of what you're talking about here is animal training rules being found in the text of a Survival charm, which is an editing error that the book's editor has talked about a bit. Otherwise, this thing where the game isn't functional because none of the rules exist is.. I don't get it. I don't mean to imply that you're lying here, but all I can really say is that it's just not true.

                              Given that future books will be much less than 700 pages long, and that the big ones (splats, anyway) will most likely have associated Kickstarter editions and early .pdfs being sent to backers for proof-reading/playing, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

                              It is almost too late at that point though because you have the weight of the fact that the book is through layout pushing back against changes being made. I think we could probably make a list of dozens of clarifications that could and probably should have been made in the EX3 core but weren't, and I think the biggest factor in those changes not being made was probably that the book had already gone through layout and they would have been more difficult to make.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Holden View Post
                                Arms is double extra especially not getting the open dev treatment because we've had several rounds of this happen.
                                If Arms of the chosen can deliver some artifact 'templates' for sea vessels, flying craft, & artillery (so PCs and STs alike can create/extrapolate them), I'd call the book a great success... regardless of its remaining content or how the book was drafted. Don't get me wrong, more artifacts and evocation stuff is great... but for me it would be 50+ pages of icing on the cake


                                Long time lurker

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