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  • Corebook Rush

    I have no idea how these things work so if a writer or dev wants to school me on why this unrealistic please excuse my lack of knowledge on the subject.

    I recently got into Exalted again after playing with it briefly during 1e and 2e. I always thought the game was very cool but it was hard to find anybody else who was into it as I did not live in a major city until recently. I think 3e has great fiction and writing and I'm really enjoying reading it.

    I wish that development on books outside of the core splatbooks would stop completely until the core splatbooks are out. I really love the idea of getting supplemental books but despite that I think a corebook focus is a good idea.

    First, I feel like the books on sorcery / world / artifacts will be much more informed and integrated if the core books are out by that time as well. I mean I bet a large portion of the fundamental systems for several Exalt types aren't yet finished so any artifacts or sorcery that deal with those mechanics will be tacked on if the 'big sourcebook' on that topic comes out prematurely.

    Second, the corebooks are emerging at a glacially slow place that I feel is really harming the line. Maybe if they were focused on the exclusion of all else, we could see the major splats by 2020 at least? I live next to players now (sadly way too busy to play but at least we TALK about it) and all of them universally suggest this is the reason why 3e 'will fail'. Personally I had no idea how slow it would be when I first got involved in Exalted.

    As I understand it most of the writers and devs are part timers so maybe a tighter focus could help bring out the foundation of the game first. I haven't played a great deal in 3e so I am not an authority on the subject kind of an armchair commentator but hey there it is.

  • #2
    I wish sorcery was more fleshed out as we are missing far too many spells and magic being quite a large part of the game id have hoped that it would come out as an update after the core book before they go into things like other splat books.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Piff View Post
      First, I feel like the books on sorcery / world / artifacts will be much more informed and integrated if the core books are out by that time as well. I mean I bet a large portion of the fundamental systems for several Exalt types aren't yet finished so any artifacts or sorcery that deal with those mechanics will be tacked on if the 'big sourcebook' on that topic comes out prematurely.
      I think this is a bit over stated. This is the third edition of the game. A lot of the work that needs to happen for the remaining Exalted "core" books and any setting books is already done in the sense of the ground work already being there. The Devs have also been fairly adamant that one of the goals that was a big deal for 3e - and one they feel they accomplished - was setting things up so future books can go faster; even seemingly minor things like already having the visual layout/design styles for the different splats ready to go.

      There's also a certain amount of co-development that tends to happen in Exalted. The 3e book talking about the Realm proper is being developed at the same time as the Dragonblooded book, which helps make sure things are cohesive.

      As well, you have to remember that game design is a creative endeavor. Having a few supplements in the pipeline as well as two "core" books lets them stop banging their heads on one book if it's being a pain, and work on something else for a bit. Sometimes they need a break from just working on a single book all the time.

      Second, the corebooks are emerging at a glacially slow place that I feel is really harming the line.
      Um, they are? Based on what?

      In 1e and 2e, the core book came out one year, and then the "cores" started coming out at around two a year. Exalted core was released this year, and two "core" books are in the pipeline for next year. That's... exactly on pace with previous editions. People might lament that we're not going to see various Exalts get their books for some time, but that's basically how long we waited
      for them the first two times around as well.

      If this sort of thing was going to "kill" Exalted it would have done it already.

      I also don't think you can really get them out much faster than this. Even if they don't do the other source books in the meantime (despite having to do a lot of the work that will go into them as it is, such as the Realm and DB books), trying to do three Exalt books a year is an insane pace for quality control, realistic scheduling, and it would still be years before they're all out. In the mean time, there would be no support for people that are already playing the game with new material to play with.

      Putting out things like books one major game widgets like artifacts and sorcery, and expanded setting books, are to try to balance working on the other Exalts some fans want to see ASAP with giving new material to people playing Solars and will be for a year or two anyway.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Piff View Post
        I wish that development on books outside of the core splatbooks would stop completely until the core splatbooks are out. I really love the idea of getting supplemental books but despite that I think a corebook focus is a good idea.
        By "core book", do you mean "splat book", i.e. Dragon-Blooded, Lunars, Abyssals, etc.? On the short-list of books, Dragon-Blooded is included. We also know that the Exigents book is planned for their next development cycle (i.e. after the DB/Realm/Arms/Quick Rules set).

        Originally posted by Piff View Post
        First, I feel like the books on sorcery / world / artifacts will be much more informed and integrated if the core books are out by that time as well. I mean I bet a large portion of the fundamental systems for several Exalt types aren't yet finished so any artifacts or sorcery that deal with those mechanics will be tacked on if the 'big sourcebook' on that topic comes out prematurely.
        I can empathize with you here: if they released all the splat books first, the content of Arms would probably be improved by reference. On the other hand, players will always want more content for existing splats. To put it another way, it would be nice if we had the Lunar book, but the average gaming group might get more mileage from possessing a book of new artifacts to put in the hands of their PCs and NPCs.

        Originally posted by Piff View Post
        Second, the corebooks are emerging at a glacially slow place that I feel is really harming the line. Maybe if they were focused on the exclusion of all else, we could see the major splats by 2020 at least? I live next to players now (sadly way too busy to play but at least we TALK about it) and all of them universally suggest this is the reason why 3e 'will fail'. Personally I had no idea how slow it would be when I first got involved in Exalted.
        I'm not sure what their metric is for failure. The core rule book has been sitting on the top ten hottest titles at DriveThurRPG since its release. Miracles of the Solar Exalted, the supplement, did very well too.

        Originally posted by Piff View Post
        As I understand it most of the writers and devs are part timers so maybe a tighter focus could help bring out the foundation of the game first. I haven't played a great deal in 3e so I am not an authority on the subject kind of an armchair commentator but hey there it is.
        Most of the books being released are the foundation of the game. You need the core rules, which you have, and the rules for the Solars, which are included in the CRB.

        The next most important thing is information on the Dragon-Blooded - in particular, the DBs of the Realm. Books on both DBs generally and the Realm specifically are in the works.

        They're also releasing a quick start set of rules, which... now is the time.

        The only thing they've got in the immediate pipeline which isn't an obvious high priority is the Arms of the Chosen book (addressed above)

        In response to the more general question of developer priorities...
        The developers write whatever they're most interested in writing. With Exalted, this generally means you're going to see more "core setting" elements released before extraneous ones. Solars and DBs are central to the setting. Alchemicals are awesome, but so far removed from the core elements of the setting that you can expect them to be one of the last released.

        Originally posted by Beast of Bitter Oblivion
        I wish sorcery was more fleshed out as we are missing far too many spells and magic being quite a large part of the game id have hoped that it would come out as an update after the core book before they go into things like other splat books.
        In the meantime, pick up The Book of Three Circles. It's a 1e supplement with dozens of spells, and the material is easily converted to 3e.

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        • #5
          Well, I think that straight away we can see the problem: different people have different ideas about what needs to come out first. Personally I agree with Piff, in that I want the rules for at least 3-4 kinds of Exalts before stuff like Manses, or spells, or more kung-fu, or artefacts, which I don't care that much about since we already have some spells, kung-fu, etc (and I don't care about manses). For me, the most important books would be Dragonblood and Lunars.
          But then you have people like the Beast here, who want the spells out first.
          And I'm sure there are other people who are really keen on getting artefacts because their games are all about artefacts, and other people who really want the rules for Manses, and so forth.

          One thing I do remember the devs saying, and I think they are right, is that because of the way some things take much longer than others, it's more efficient to split up the splat books.

          For example, the fluff writers can write the fluff for the Dragonblood book, the Realm book, and probably another one, while the mechanics writers are still working on the Dragonblood charms, as they need play-testing and so forth. So, doing the Realm fluff book doesn't really slow the splat books down. Thus, they'll alternate between mechanics and fluff books even though people might be more keen on getting the mechanics books. I don't know if that applies to something that's mechanical but not a splat book, like Arms of the Chosen or Towers of the Mighty, but it might well do.
          It might well be that some writers are good at writing Evocations but not base charms, so having them work on Arms of the Chosen doesn't make much difference to Exigents because they wouldn't be doing it anyway, that's waiting for the writers of the Dragonblood charms (Vance?) to finish.
          (Honestly, I could well imagine that they want to put their best mechanics writers on Splat charms, and are happy for the less-experienced mechanics writers to go work on artefacts or manses or even spells, because those don't quite matter so much if they're not top-notch, on account of being cheaper, and less of a foundation for the game. If the rules for DBs suck, it's a bigger problem than if the extra spells in the Tome of Brigid suck, as those are easy to ignore.)
          And Towers of the Mighty, while I guess it will need some rules stuff for Manses, probably will just have a bit, and loads of fluff for the locations in it, while a splat book will have a lot more of the time-consuming mechanics.

          Also... Piff, I'm afraid you're probably a bit late. I'd rather they worked on the mechanics for another splat book rather than Arms of the Chosen, which I'm not very interested in, but they've already announced it in their schedule and started working on it (they mentioned that the evocations they've written/are writing are a bit different to the way evocations work in the Core, which shows they're doing it now). Might as well finish it, rather than drop it and go start Exigents from scratch.


          Also, as to the time... it's difficult to tell, because the Core hasn't actually been out that long (7 months? I don't remember exactly). The Core obviously took ages and ages and ages and ages to be released. No idea if that'll also be the case for the splat books or not. Can't really judge until we see how long it takes for the DB book comes out.
          Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 12-26-2016, 05:03 PM.


          "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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          • #6
            Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
            Also, as to the time... it's difficult to tell, because the Core hasn't actually been out that long (7 months? I don't remember exactly). The Core obviously took ages and ages and ages and ages to be released. No idea if that'll also be the case for the splat books or not. Can't really judge until we see how long it takes for the DB book comes out.
            Looking back at the kickstarter updates the EX3 backer pdf came out in Oct 2015 so more than a year ago. I can see why people would at the very least expect the backer PDF for the next big book DBs to have made its way out 14 months later, or if not that even just some sign of Arms of the Chosen nearing completion beyond unspecific movement in the eldritch monday meetings matrix.

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            • #7
              I think due to the leaks, the "early backer" pdf release, the long development cycle and the push back of release dates for 3rd edition, it feels like 3rd edition has been out for a much longer period of time that it actually has been - I mean, just to point out it was officially released back in April, so it's only been 8 months since it was released, and we had Miracles come out not long ago.

              Still, I've heard a lot of people complaining about Exalted's slow publishing schedule. Even if that's more of a problem with their perception than reality, it doesn't really matter. If people feel a game is taking too long to release supplements, they'll go buy other games and eventually lose interest in yours. In business, very often times customer's perceptions are far more important than facts, regardless of how unfair that might be.

              Hopefully Paths of Brigid and Arms of the Chosen get release dates and Exalted 3rd edition will get rolling soon.

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              • #8
                If you take into account the dev time so far, and between the public draft of the Core and the release of the Core, I do think it does suggest a slower development time. Because they're writing more mechanical content than happened before, testing it more, systems and interactions are probably more complex and various, and Onyx Path is a reduced organisation compared to White Wolf.

                I don't think there could be a lot of traction in getting the splats to jump Solar useful supplements. (Which should include a useful book of adversaries and NPCs I guess?) In the First Edition I feel like you had a quick pace on the splat books (in addition to mechanical stuff) because the developer saw it as a very multi-splat game. But it didn't work out so much like that as played. So the Third Ed developers seem much more focused on lots of content for the Solars, as *the* player characters, with the other splats as more niche and narrow books (and I think this is on the record?). Then if that's the stance it makes more sense to write up content that makes the Solar game more complete before writing niche stuff.

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                • #9
                  So early 2025 for next splat book then if we being optimistic? : p

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Beast of Bitter Oblivion View Post
                    So early 2025 for next splat book then if we being optimistic? : p
                    I'm going to guess Dragon Blooded will probably come out in 2017 - Vance has been working on them for quite awhile. Then Exigents in 2018. I think we'll see 1 splat book per year, perhaps with one or two other smaller books released during the year.

                    Theoretically the release schedule might look something like - Lunars in 2019, Sidereal in 2020, Abyssals in 2021, Liminals in 2022, Infernals in 2023, Alchemicals in 2024,

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                    • #11
                      I suspect we will see Sidereals before Lunars. The devs have talked about how the Lunars work best if you're heavily invested in the setting. They haven't made similar statements about the other splats (though it's certainly true of all of them to one extent or another), so I suspect Lunars aren't a priority. Not that they're disliked. It sounds like they'll do a lot of cool things with them. They just want to show off the Lunars' role in a more established context of the game setting.

                      Originally posted by Ghosthead
                      So the Third Ed developers seem much more focused on lots of content for the Solars, as *the* player characters, with the other splats as more niche and narrow books (and I think this is on the record?). Then if that's the stance it makes more sense to write up content that makes the Solar game more complete before writing niche stuff.
                      They've said something along these lines, yes. More specifically, the only splats you really need to run Exalted are the Solars and the Dragon-Blooded. Everyone else adds elements to the settings (the Sidereals especially, to the Solar/DB struggle), but it is the interplay between those two splats that sets the foundation.

                      As I've suggested, Lunars might be a-ways away, and we know that Infernals and Alchemicals, being relegated to the position of "optional" splats, will be among the lowest priority releases.

                      I'd love nothing more than to hear "Alchemicals 2018", but I'm not surprised they are prioritizing other things.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

                        I'm going to guess Dragon Blooded will probably come out in 2017 - Vance has been working on them for quite awhile. Then Exigents in 2018. I think we'll see 1 splat book per year, perhaps with one or two other smaller books released during the year.

                        Theoretically the release schedule might look something like - Lunars in 2019, Sidereal in 2020, Abyssals in 2021, Liminals in 2022, Infernals in 2023, Alchemicals in 2024,
                        That should be a pretty reasonable schedule, though I think at this moment maybe a slightly overly optimistic one? I just don't think we have seen a capability of getting the big books out quite that fast yet. I remember just after the core book came out everyone was sure the pace of books coming out was going to pick up dramatically because "all the groundwork was done", but as of yet that hasn't really occurred in reality.

                        If hypothetically we were to get the DB backer pdf in April 2017 (which may be a stretch unless the Kickstarter pops up as a surprise next week), it would be 18 months since the last full splat pdf came out. I'd be willing to chock that big gap up one more time to the Developers having personal lives, but would be watching very closely afterwards to see that pace finally pick up and the next major book to come in 8-12 months.

                        If it doesn't pick up I think somebody needs to re-evaluate the development process. I don't necessarily know what changes would make the difference, but even from the outside I have some inkling that a firmer project management hand could help focus things, or maybe even a shuffle of developer and writer staff so that roles are more clearly defined and you have three people each wearing one hat, rather than three people sharing three hats. Its hard to really say because we don't get many looks into what development is happening, but if feels like one of the big choke points slowing down the development is situations where books are stuck in a holding pattern because developers are writing or writers are developing and things ready to move on don't.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Piff View Post

                          I wish that development on books outside of the core splatbooks would stop completely until the core splatbooks are out.
                          ​By their description of their capabilities and experiences, this would be exhausting. It likely won't make things quicker.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Sword Emperor View Post
                            I suspect we will see Sidereals before Lunars. The devs have talked about how the Lunars work best if you're heavily invested in the setting. They haven't made similar statements about the other splats (though it's certainly true of all of them to one extent or another), so I suspect Lunars aren't a priority. Not that they're disliked. It sounds like they'll do a lot of cool things with them. They just want to show off the Lunars' role in a more established context of the game setting.
                            I have always though Sidereals should come after Lunars and maybe even after Abyssals because of all the splats they are the one whose story is most reliant on dealing with the outside actions and aggressions of the other splats. If the Lunar and Abyssal roles in Creation haven't been thoroughly defined I think it would set a bad precedent to have the Sidereals to come first and define those roles for them.

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                            • #15
                              Mod edit. Not helpful or appropriate. Darksider
                              Last edited by Darksider; 12-27-2016, 04:55 AM.


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