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Do Exaltations change caste between incarnations

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  • #61
    Originally posted by hippokrene View Post

    I recall someone having an Infernal who would have been a Solar but they were out of Exaltations that day. So they failed and became an Infernal instead.
    This is just story fluff though. It's not like you knew all the Solars to prove this. Conversely, I could say that all Solar exaltations (whether there are 150 or 300 or 1000) are currently taken, so the character in question became an Infernal. So changing exaltations so they can change their caste would still be pointless!

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    • #62
      If incorporated by the ST, it would allow for the trope of 'we know Y is the chosen one, but he doesn't act like the sort of chosen one we expected, his skills are completely different from that of his past incarnation X' which opens up a few story possibilities.

      (Historically, Exalted character arcs have been more about proving to the world that they were heroes at all and/or developing the same skillset that X had until they could match him. Which is fine, but sometimes you just want something different.)
      Last edited by Argonometra; 01-10-2017, 10:48 AM.

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      • #63
        Now that I opened this barrel of fish. (2ed heavily)

        My biggest impulse for fixed castes and them going to who ever is the most heroic and with the right skills and focus (or a strong inclination to develop them. Is that the whole purpose of using humans against the primordials where:

        1. Humans can be empowered fairly easy and existed in large numbers. I see this as a need to quickly get a new Exalt back in the battle quickly rather than wait 20 years. The end result for me is that the exaltation holds the same caste and memories and secrets known to other of the caste in the past. This allows rapidly learning a skill from the recorded memories

        2. The idea that the Sun can select the caste of an Exaltion much less give it to a specific person is absurd. Due to the basic assumption of the game in that the Sun is incapable of dictating where the exaltation goes. For the basic reason that he could not be forced to recall or destroy the exaltation or command there users in the use of those powers directly.

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        • #64
          The Sun can totally choose where an exaltation goes. They're called the Chosen of the Sun for a reason.

          What he can't do is prevent an exaltation picking a host. He can aim them, but they will hit someone regardless of what he does.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by hippokrene View Post
            I recall someone having an Infernal who would have been a Solar but they were out of Exaltations that day. So they failed and became an Infernal instead.
            That was actually what would canonically happen with Infernal back in 2nd edition.

            The Yozi place the Infernal Exaltation inside of a demon and send the demon to Creation. Then some mortal does something impressive that would normally have attracted Solar Exaltation and the Exaltation inside the demon reacts. Unfortunately, since the Exaltation is trapped inside the demon, it can't fly to the mortal. As a result, the mortal does not Exalt and very likely ends up failing whatever task they were attempting. Then later the demon approaches the mortal and offers them the Exaltation in its body.

            Of course, this was based on the 2nd edition conceit that Celestial Exaltations were not "one size fits all." Rather, each individual Exaltation would be attracted to different concepts, actions and ideas. So Joe the Barbarian might do something awesome and Exaltation A would be attracted to him - but if Exaltation A were already taken by someone else (or otherwise prevented from reaching him) he wouldn't just end up getting Exaltation B, C or D because those might not be interested in his traits.

            In contrast, Lunar Exaltations were "one size fits all." If you did something neato, you'd get slapped with a Lunar Exaltation and its caste would slowly end up fitting yourself.

            3rd edition has moved away from the idea of self-driven Exaltations to the idea that the Unconquered Sun sticks his Exaltations in people he finds worthy - and presumably he can stick any Exaltation he wants in any person. So if the authors like Vance's suggestion, it could be very easy to change Exaltations away from being "hardcoded" to specific castes and simply say the Unconquered Sun sees someone do something nifty, gives them his blessing, and then it takes the Caste of whatever would work best for the given individual.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Elfive View Post
              The Sun can totally choose where an exaltation goes. They're called the Chosen of the Sun for a reason.
              Yeah, but I think that moniker only applies literally to most Solars. I can't see Conky giving power to a serial killer, no matter how many Solar-related traits the person had. (I know Conky's kinda distracted at the moment, but there's no way he cares enough to analyse humanity for suitable hosts but not care about potential hosts' morality. There's exalting a person with unusual but genuinely well-intentioned beliefs, and then there's exalting someone with no ambition other than 'I hate everyone and want to kill them'. Even Kratos had loved ones he wanted to protect.
              Last edited by Argonometra; 01-10-2017, 01:41 PM.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Argonometra View Post
                I can't see Conky giving power to a serial killer, no matter how many Solar-related traits the person had.
                Has anybody suggested otherwise?

                Originally posted by Argonometra
                there's exalting someone with no ambition other than 'I hate everyone and want to kill them'.
                That doesn't sound like the motivation of a functioning person.

                Originally posted by Argonometra
                Even Kratos had loved ones he wanted to protect.
                Well... technically he didn't, since they were already dead.

                ​Kratos was motivated by the desire to stop being traumatised over the fact that he had killed them, then by the desire for revenge against people who took issue with how he was trying to distract himself from that trauma (also something something Pandora's Box), then it kind of veers around for a bit because Kratos is not exactly a tightly written character.

                But I digress.

                ​I'm actually not really sure what the statement of your post is. It seems to be responding to "Solars are the Chosen of the Sun" with "really bad people shouldn't be Chosen by the Sun", while begging the question of whether there are Solars who don't seem like they could be Chosen by the Sun.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
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                • #68
                  I was referring to Havesh the Vanisher.

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                  • #69
                    Havesh the Vanisher is a hitman, who only takes hits out on the oppressive ruling class of his society that is inequitable even by the standards of the Second Age.

                    ​With the exception of that one murder he committed against a member of that class because the man offended him by making a big show of unprovoked violence against a homeless member of the untouchable caste to which Havesh himself belongs.

                    ​Plus, even by the standards of supernatural hitmen, the narrative established for Havesh in the Caste Book has him having killed about nine people.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Argonometra View Post
                      I was referring to Havesh the Vanisher.
                      Havesh isn't some random monster though.

                      He was born with a shit hand dealt against him, into a society that ostracized him from birth. He had no chances or opportunities in life and finally tried to kill someone since it was the only way to earn money and the Unconquered Sun decided to give him his blessing.

                      After that, he's decided that the best trick staying alive is to lay low to avoid the Wyld Hunt - he's canny enough to realize every other person who has Exalted as a Solar over the last 1000+ years has been executed, so keeping a low profile is the only way to live. Plus, operating as an assassin is a good way to earn cash, and he takes pleasure in killing rich, high-class assholes who treat low class people like shit.

                      It's a job that lets him keep fairly low to the ground, enjoy the fine life he never had the opportunity to experience when he was mortal, and lets him vent his frustrations against rich bastards. But really he's more of a cold-hearted practical person, than some kind of socio-path or someone who just lives to kill.

                      Besides which, there are many Solar characters with much higher kill-counts than Havesh and who have done far worse things than he's done.

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                      • #71
                        It's also worth noting that the Caste Book wrote Havesh's story as though it was just beginning, in a manner that made some of the repeated details about it moot, because he gave himself away in his sleep and was forced to go on the run into the wider world.

                        ​Still, I sometimes find the degree to which people read the Caste Books as including examples of Solars as bad people to be a bit extreme. Especially with regards to Lyta; as though, historically, there has been something controversial about brutally killing one's enemies.

                        ​I'm not going to describe exactly how the man who assassinated the leader of the Dutch rebels in the Eighty Years' War was treated, but I'll allude to it as something to which Lyta's ideas of what to do with Dragon Blooded can barely hold a candle.

                        ​My point is that whatever the way Solars come about, their capacity for violence, or even cruelty, seems to have been fairly consistently been written to exist within a certain context.

                        ​Barring the Great Curse, of course.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                        • #72
                          I think it's worth noting that the conception of righteous from TUS and our own contemporary standards are likely divergent, and further argue that his judgement is ineffable but not infallible.


                          Blasphemy? No, it is not blasphemy. If God is as vast as that, he is above blasphemy; if He is as little as that, He is beneath it.
                          - Mark Twain, a Biography

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                          • #73
                            It suddenly occurred to me that Exaltations changing caste as needed by their chosen would be a good way to have 108 Sidereal Exaltations without having to explain which Maidens get the 3 extra chosen..


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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post
                              It suddenly occurred to me that Exaltations changing caste as needed by their chosen would be a good way to have 108 Sidereal Exaltations without having to explain which Maidens get the 3 extra chosen..
                              No that would ellicit a crap ton more questions as to why there are suddenly 8 new Sidereals.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by zylosan View Post
                                Like it says in the title

                                SOLARS, ABYSSALS, INFERNALS: Caste is a fixed quality across incarnations. If the Exaltation was a Dawn Caste last time it came around, it will be this time too, and the time after.

                                DRAGON-BLOODED, LIMINALS, AND ALCHEMICALS: Do not have reincarnating Exaltations.

                                LUNARS: Caste is determined after Exaltation, and can differ from incarnation to incarnation.

                                SIDEREALS: Like Solars, Caste is fixed from incarnation to incarnation.


                                Former Exalted developer.
                                --
                                Holden Reads the entire classic World of Darkness
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