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  • #46
    Now, since taxes ("paying the landlord") were brought up, I want to mention that I once heard that the English language has specific words for "lamb meat", "cow meat", and "pig meat" (mutton, beef and pork) because during the time Britain's nobles spoke French, the taxes were paid in meat, and the common folk adapted the French words for those animals as names for their meat. So, taxes paid in food and services were a thing for quite a while.


    Also, has anyone mentioned the island (archipelago?) where the people chiseled giant stone "coins" that are never really moved (once they're on the island - apparently, the quarry was on another island and they had to be brought back by boat), they were just left lying around because everyone knows which coin belongs to what village?


    Wait, this isn't actually a "interesting trivia about the history of money" topic, is it? Nevermind, then.


    Silencing Whisper, Eclipse; Amethyst, Changing Moon;
    Daughter of Charcoal and Ash, Dusk, and her Full Moon sister;
    Broken Crystal, Infernal (Night-, or maybe Twilight-equivalent).

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Holden View Post
      Money? Money is for dealing with strangers, sailors, outsiders. What do you need (or want) with money to deal with your neighbor?
      Given that my Eclipse concept is a sailing merchant who deals in piracy (the piracy is means to an end. As is the cargo, actually) this actually gave me a lot to think about in terms of her mindset.


      Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Amakawa Yuuto View Post
        Now, since taxes ("paying the landlord") were brought up, I want to mention that I once heard that the English language has specific words for "lamb meat", "cow meat", and "pig meat" (mutton, beef and pork) because during the time Britain's nobles spoke French, the taxes were paid in meat, and the common folk adapted the French words for those animals as names for their meat. So, taxes paid in food and services were a thing for quite a while.


        Also, has anyone mentioned the island (archipelago?) where the people chiseled giant stone "coins" that are never really moved (once they're on the island - apparently, the quarry was on another island and they had to be brought back by boat), they were just left lying around because everyone knows which coin belongs to what village?


        Wait, this isn't actually a "interesting trivia about the history of money" topic, is it? Nevermind, then.

        Yup we talked about the Stone Coins of Yap, quite cool.


        Yeah it was common for taxes not to be paid in money, or even by individuals. In Feudal Japan villagers would pay in quantities of rice, forgot the word, and the whole village would pay in a lump sum, so if someone couldn't contribute it would be made up by others, but you wouldn't want to keep doing that, doesn't build conducive relations with your neighbors.


        It is a time for great deeds!

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Amakawa Yuuto View Post
          Also, has anyone mentioned the island (archipelago?) where the people chiseled giant stone "coins" that are never really moved (once they're on the island - apparently, the quarry was on another island and they had to be brought back by boat), they were just left lying around because everyone knows which coin belongs to what village?
          The rai of the island of Yap. Once quarried, shipped and placed, they're never moved. People just remember what they're worth and who owns them; there's even a rai that nobody now living has ever seen, but is still there: it was lost on the way back in a great storm, but it's still a valid rai.
          Last edited by LadyLens; 01-23-2017, 04:41 PM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post


            Yup we talked about the Stone Coins of Yap, quite cool.


            Yeah it was common for taxes not to be paid in money, or even by individuals. In Feudal Japan villagers would pay in quantities of rice, forgot the word, and the whole village would pay in a lump sum, so if someone couldn't contribute it would be made up by others, but you wouldn't want to keep doing that, doesn't build conducive relations with your neighbors.

            Koku. The amount of rice one man could eat in one year. The economic output of villages and feudal domains was measured in it.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koku

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Amakawa Yuuto View Post
              taxes ("paying the landlord")
              Not quite, I think. In the context of 14th century England, terms equivalent to what we would understand as taxes would be levied only during extraordinary circumstances, such as the king wanting to conduct a war, or when the king was imprisoned and a ransom needed to be raised. It was a society with a concept that there were certain times when just about everybody needed to contribute money as a condition of being part of the state/realm, but not for all times, and not for the general expenses of government. Those were paid for by the personal fortune of the English crown, even if the crown income included things like being owed dues on the sale of wine.

              Originally posted by Amakawa Yuuto
              I want to mention that I once heard that the English language has specific words for "lamb meat", "cow meat", and "pig meat" (mutton, beef and pork) because during the time Britain's nobles spoke French, the taxes were paid in meat, and the common folk adapted the French words for those animals as names for their meat. So, taxes paid in food and services were a thing for quite a while.
              Hmmm... keep it on topic.

              ​Anyway, I was talking about a specific period in which there was a transition away from it being a thing, and the related social implications, as pertained to the subject of what kinds of money would exist and why.

              ​It depends on a bit on there being a market economy in which whomever is collecting from you can participate, or otherwise what their expenses are.

              ​For example, in the satrapies, I could picture there being more money trickling up in the form of currency, because the people at the top need to regularly make tributes that include currency.

              ​There's also an inversion of the concept, in which a government wants people to engage in certain kinds of labour, and so requires them to yield cash in order to push them towards that. I've heard that at a certain point in Chinese history, the authorities started demanding taxes in silver as a way of encouraging larger sections of the populace to devote their farming to silk production rather than food crops.


              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
              https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                In Feudal Japan villagers would pay in quantities of rice
                ​That taxes and the incomes of daimyos was paid in rice during the Edo period represents an interesting case, because that was actually a time in which Japan was becoming increasingly commercial.

                From the information I have, I infer that part of the reasoning for such a policy was to lock the agrarian population out of that commercial activity.

                ​Whether it was intended to or not, it also had the ultimate implication of making daimyo a bit subordinate to the growing merchant classes as well, because an income in large quantities of rice was difficult to levy into purchases, especially when daimyo were required by law to travel around a lot, so they consolidated a lot of their wealth into warehouses managed by rice brokers who used it as the basis for issuing financial instruments.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                  ​Anyway, I was talking about a specific period in which there was a transition away from it being a thing, and the related social implications, as pertained to the subject of what kinds of money would exist and why.

                  ​It depends on a bit on there being a market economy in which whomever is collecting from you can participate, or otherwise what their expenses are.

                  ​For example, in the satrapies, I could picture there being more money trickling up in the form of currency, because the people at the top need to regularly make tributes that include currency.

                  ​There's also an inversion of the concept, in which a government wants people to engage in certain kinds of labour, and so requires them to yield cash in order to push them towards that. I've heard that at a certain point in Chinese history, the authorities started demanding taxes in silver as a way of encouraging larger sections of the populace to devote their farming to silk production rather than food crops.
                  The Realm is pretty flexible in its demands of tribute, and a big part of a satrap's job is determining exactly what his satrapy is good for, and liasing with his Great House to figure out what to best leverage out of it. The standard of course is money, but due to the dizzying variety of cultures and societies the Realm extorts, that's not always practical. Sometimes it's useful or precious metals mined directly out of the satrapy by the natives and handed straight up to the Realm. Sometimes it's silk, spices, gems, drugs, or exotic plants. If nothing else, the Realm can simply demand slaves (they don't generally care where or how you get them). In other cases, the Realm has ended up in possession of a really 'useless' satrapy and forcibly converted the entire population into industrial production of some commodity it needs, such as lengths of chain, rope, helmets, shields, or whatever else is in constant demand somewhere within the boundaries of the empire. (The problem of pumping out X metric tons of socks for the legions and also growing enough food to survive the winter is left to the ingenuity of the natives to address.)


                  Former Exalted developer.
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                  Holden Reads the entire classic World of Darkness
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                  • #54
                    So again just curious it seems without money like coins the prostitution industry must be limited, as you essentially would be hookers for favors? Or something like a slave?

                    But more on topic question how much would you say you could charge if you are introducing a new metal to a region, like Brass Bamboo from Malfeas, that essentially is a strong light steel, like say feather steel. One of the players took like 300 Kilos of the stuff from his demonic home town and made a deal to find new markets for it. He had a groovy bureaucracy roll, and found a buy that is perfect for the stuff, the Guild of the Metal Snake of Flowing Liquids, essentially Plumbers for a city built upon 1st age infrastructure so they have a use for strong metal tubes as is, while others would have to melt it down to use it. So I had them pay something along the lines of 100 Dinars for a 50 kg sample, along with some some samples of tin. And part of it was understanding that they would get further access to suppliers. That is about the amount of money for 10 work horses or one really well trained horse.

                    How much do you think simple house or cottage would cost if we say a rural villa is 8,000ish (Which I take to mean basically mansions), I'm thinking then a family house or Cottage may be in the 70-400 dinar range? Its hard to figure estimates sometimes.

                    But how much money would you wager for selling things like this exotic useful metal in bulk?



                    And lets toss around some wide guesses, about how much of Creation do you imagine doesn't really use things like Coin/paper money, like the Realm and Guilds. So how much do you think use it and how much doesn't?


                    It is a time for great deeds!

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                    • #55
                      Also how much do you think it costs to hire a surgeon to remove arrows, both professional, and back alley mob doctors.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                        So again just curious it seems without money like coins the prostitution industry must be limited, as you essentially would be hookers for favors? Or something like a slave?

                        But more on topic question how much would you say you could charge if you are introducing a new metal to a region, like Brass Bamboo from Malfeas, that essentially is a strong light steel, like say feather steel. One of the players took like 300 Kilos of the stuff from his demonic home town and made a deal to find new markets for it. He had a groovy bureaucracy roll, and found a buy that is perfect for the stuff, the Guild of the Metal Snake of Flowing Liquids, essentially Plumbers for a city built upon 1st age infrastructure so they have a use for strong metal tubes as is, while others would have to melt it down to use it. So I had them pay something along the lines of 100 Dinars for a 50 kg sample, along with some some samples of tin. And part of it was understanding that they would get further access to suppliers. That is about the amount of money for 10 work horses or one really well trained horse.

                        How much do you think simple house or cottage would cost if we say a rural villa is 8,000ish (Which I take to mean basically mansions), I'm thinking then a family house or Cottage may be in the 70-400 dinar range? Its hard to figure estimates sometimes.

                        But how much money would you wager for selling things like this exotic useful metal in bulk?



                        And lets toss around some wide guesses, about how much of Creation do you imagine doesn't really use things like Coin/paper money, like the Realm and Guilds. So how much do you think use it and how much doesn't?

                        It depends on how useful the metal is, and how much supply one could get at any one time.

                        And selling things in bulk (aka wholesale) is going to bring out fewer returns than selling it retail. Also, one has to consider market saturation; if you sell these brass/steel pipes to the city, eventually they are going to get to the point where they don't really need any more, or only need a little at a time, for maintenance or repairs.

                        Finally, overwhelmingly most common people aren't going to be spending money on ....... well, basically anything. They are going to build their own house, make their own clothing, make their own tools, and raise their own food.

                        Ever hear of "barn raising"? It is when entire communities come together to help a family build a house (or barn, etc), specifically so they don't have to pay a contractor to do it. For most of human history, buildings have been made of local materials specifically for that reason.

                        So on and so forth.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                          So again just curious it seems without money like coins the prostitution industry must be limited, as you essentially would be hookers for favors?
                          Almost all specialized professions are basically nonexistent in rural villages, including prostitution. You might find people trading sexual favors for other kinds, but nobody who "makes a living" at it.

                          Professionals start to show up as the population density goes up; you both get more specialists, and people keeping ledgers of debts and receiving explicit payments-in-kind for services rendered and the like. The larger the town, the closer you'll get to an urban monetary economy.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                            So again just curious it seems without money like coins the prostitution industry must be limited, as you essentially would be hookers for favors?
                            ​In a non-urban community, I think the closest thing one gets to prostitution is a kind of sacred act, in which case the dynamics Holden described with the local priests still apply.

                            ​Otherwise, they're just another business that runs a tab.

                            Originally posted by Eldagusto
                            How much do you think simple house or cottage would cost if we say a rural villa is 8,000ish (Which I take to mean basically mansions), I'm thinking then a family house or Cottage may be in the 70-400 dinar range? Its hard to figure estimates sometimes.
                            ​If it's something like rural housing, you either built it yourself (probably with help from the community), or inherited it.

                            ​In a town, for anybody below a certain class status, the concept of home ownership is non-existent; you're always a tenant, often in some very packed housing. In cities across Creation, you're getting families of up to a dozen people living in two rooms, maybe three if they're lucky, on a single floor.

                            That being on occasions where you don't squat, or live in shanties.

                            ​Richer people might buy one another's town houses, but that's not really an industry, just agreements between people of status.


                            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                              ​In a non-urban community, I think the closest thing one gets to prostitution is a kind of sacred act, in which case the dynamics Holden described with the local priests still apply.

                              ​Otherwise, they're just another business that runs a tab.

                              .
                              Or, to be crude, 'fucking for favors".

                              "I'll sleep with you if you weed my garden, etc"

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                              • #60
                                I don't think your temple prostitutes necessarily have sex with the people who provide their food and things.

                                ​Phrasing it like that strikes me as reductive, and going a bit past crude and into skeevy.


                                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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