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  • #16
    I imagine there might be a fair amount of time where the pc would also need to define the mechanics of this "no interacting with anything that has a soul" rule. As pointed out by others the summoner would need to establish what kind of beings might even possess a soul. The other one would be how do spirits interact with this rule? A hungry ghost for example is probably going to give exactly no crap about a vactri that isn't attacking it because vactri are sentient masses of crystal and posses nothing a hungry ghost wants. On the flip side a hungry ghost is literally a person's lower soul, so does that count as having a soul or does just being one disqualify?

    That's not even getting into the other fun bit where 3rd changed how summon elemental works and it's now just creating the elementals out of the ether, so to speak. So assuming the summoner does this every day for a month the oldest of the batch is literally a month old and while there is probably a fair bit of instinctive knowledge somethings are probably not covered. I'm just picturing a scenario where the summoner didn't go out to check the work site during the time all the summoning was being done and then just finding the whole mass in a philosophical debate on whether or not they have souls; and if so is it against the rules to inform the new kids of this to avoid the violation of the rules, or would it be like breaking a limb to ensure it sets properly. (Kind of against the objective, but ultimately the better option in the long run.)

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post
      also technically humans have two souls and thus do not have "a soul" and are thus fair game for the elementals to interact with

      tee hee hee
      ​Now I'm thinking that something to put up against the idea of bound demons or elementals following the spirit of their orders has them spending time in a bit of confusion over what the spirit of their orders actually was.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

        ​Now I'm thinking that something to put up against the idea of bound demons or elementals following the spirit of their orders has them spending time in a bit of confusion over what the spirit of their orders actually was.
        In all fairness, if the summoner has a specific intent behind that wording, the summoned creatures should understand it. In this case, I'm pretty sure this is a case of the summoner meaning "human beings" and trying to be overly specific — likely out of the belief that they'll have their wording twisted by the elementals / the ST.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by Walker-of-Ebony-Clouds View Post

          He says its for exactly that security & construction of a manse... Upon binding these elementals his exact conditions for them is that they are bound to serve him in anyway he desires & they must not interact with anything with a soul unless told otherwise by him with self defense being the only exception....

          If he summons one a day for a month then he will have around 30 spirits at his beck & call...

          A few of the other players are a bit worried about him having that many spirits at his beck & call & him constructing a manse...
          Did he specify what sort of elementals he summoned? The kinds of spirits used for construction of a manse are likely to be very different from the kind used for security. I would use TheCountAlucard's suggestion of battle groups. That means at most he's got a size 2, might 2, Poor drill battle group of guys who are okay at both or two battle groups that are more specialized in their functions. You could feasibly break it out into a size 1 battle group of manse workers and a size two battle group of security.

          If he didn't specify, I would make things simple on yourself and give him one battle group of either Greenmaws or Vaktri. If he did specify, then give him what he wants. But remember that if he wants to command them in battle, he's going to wind up taking command actions on his turn. I would force him to flurry. If he didn't do it, I would have the elementals act in such a way that was consistent with their last commands. So if he told them "Go stand over there and get ready to attack on my word" and then he never told them to attack when the battle started, they'll just sit there. If he does tell them to attack while he's in combat, then I'd make him flurry that unless it was the only action he took that round.


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          • #20
            I generally reserve the Command action for directions slightly more intricate than just pointing and saying, "Attack!" Characters already trade quips between sword-strikes and suggest strategies to other player characters, after all. Though obviously if you want the dice bonus/rallying effect/et cetera., then yes, a dice action is called for.

            Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post
            In all fairness, if the summoner has a specific intent behind that wording, the summoned creatures should understand it. In this case, I'm pretty sure this is a case of the summoner meaning "human beings" and trying to be overly specific — likely out of the belief that they'll have their wording twisted by the elementals / the ST.
            Players are their own worst enemies. See also: Roy Greenhilt and the Oracle of Sunken Valley.
            Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 01-20-2017, 09:39 AM.

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            • #21
              Also, what are the logistics of a work crew of Elementals? I don't recall it saying they are tireless, or without need for some fashion of sustenance, not necessarily sleep and food mind you, but it is probably detrimental to a Greenmaw to be out int the heat without access to rich soil and water or working 24/7.


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              • #22
                I would like to think you are Summoning Elementals not in the Corebook because the Corebook dudes are not the best for construction.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #23
                  Has the player said what type of manse they want to build? Is there an unclaimed demesne in the area that they can build on?

                  I'd probably use around 10 Vaktri for security (a Size 1 battlegroup) and and 20 crafter type elementals for construction. As there aren't any crafter type elementals in the 3e book, I'd say, give them a Stonework and Architecture pool of 8 to 10 and just say they can slowly manipulate earth and stone, which will let them "grow" a manse from the land after a year of work (after which they can start rolling to finalize it), but without any additional materials or expense. Call them, I dunno, Masonry Ants and describe them as ants the size of large dogs made of various colors of marble.

                  If the sorcerer is planning to oversee the work, they can make the required Architecture Rolls (see the text box on page 243 of the 3e Core) or they can just leave everything to the elementals. If they want to leave everything to the elementals, I suggest giving them two powers. One that lets them add (size*2) of the battlegroup they're in to their architecture rolls and one that lets them get double 9s on said rolls. Which, based on the math, means that a size two battlegroup of Masonry Ants should have a roughly 50/50 chance of building a 3 dot manse (the average result of 14 dice with double 9s is ~8.4 successes, and they need 50 successes on 6 rolls to complete it or 8.3 successes per roll). Say they can make one roll to finish per month after the first year of work.
                  Last edited by BrilliantRain; 01-20-2017, 02:07 PM.


                  ....

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                    Players are their own worst enemies. See also: Roy Greenhilt and the Oracle of Sunken Valley.
                    Very true. While I would generally be averse to screwing over a player based on letter of the law, when they use specific language like this then they're making it about the letter rather than the spirit.

                    Which is fine if the player is at least aware of this, but that's a discussion for that table; for the most part summonings are likely to go not-as-intended by dint of the summoned creature's own idiosyncrasies rather than direct complications of the binding.

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                    • #25
                      if it helps: Ghosts have Souls because Ghosts ARE Souls (I believe that Hungry Ghosts are the Po soul and the other types of ghost are the Hun, although I could be mistaken.)

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post
                        In all fairness, if the summoner has a specific intent behind that wording, the summoned creatures should understand it.
                        In the majority of cases sure, but I do think it's still interesting to imagine scenarios that are genuinely ambiguous in a manner that a demon might hesitate over, without being an exercise in trying to use wordplay to mess a player around.

                        Although I'd say it mostly becomes a matter of agency for the person who might otherwise be threatened; that the binding is represented as an Intimacy makes it a valid target for Persuade actions, and I would say that a canny person should be able to get a demon to do something or not do something by giving them doubt over whether or not their action is actually fulfilling to their Principle.

                        It's also something that I would want to use to place a bit of fallibility in demons, as a further, reasonable complication for demon summoning. I think it's more interesting if, say, wanting to summon a demon who will prevent anybody of a certain political affiliation from entering a place means you need to be discerning in choices of demons who can readily comprehend political affiliations and discern them in individuals, or that you at least need to provide a demon with a bit of instruction on how to recognize people.

                        I certainly think that if you order a demon such as a hopping puppeteer to do that, you should get a demon who is going to angrily flail at everybody who comes by because it can hardly tell one person from another.

                        It actually brings me back to Holden's good example of ordering blood apes to carry your child safely to an ally in another city. The blood apes understand the intent of that order, and I think it would be interesting for them to occasionally discuss among themselves what actually fulfills that intent within their limited understandings and skill sets. That there may come a point at which the child cries over being given the shredded remains of some unfortunate traveler as food again that they ask each other if they're sure that what they're doing is what their binder meant by taking care of the child.

                        Hopping puppeteers, of course, don't even get that far.

                        If I dislike binding as something so straightforward and binary that it represents an easy way to de-fang demons, I also dislike it as something to disregard their personality quirks and the limits of their comprehension.



                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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                        • #27
                          Alright slightly different, but something occured to me. Now demons would have a stigma about summoning them due to the obvious of them being demons. Hence while creation might not have the whole idea of a summoned demon will twist your orders or the like to screw you over or go against your wishes, you may still end up with the idea that one has to be careful in ordering summoned demons because they are so very different insane monsters from hell and all that other immaculate order stuff. Somewhat reasonable since a demon will be what it is and all that.

                          Would that concept apply to elementals though? I mean elementals are still probably recognized as having a different mindset than humans, but would they have the same idea attached to them that you might need to be careful with orders lest it just go totally off the rails due to misunderstanding the order and really wanting to help?

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                          • #28
                            I think the thing is Demons are viewed usually as inherently unclean on some level, while Elementals are just viewed as dangerous.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #29
                              Elementals may not be viewed through the exact same lens as demons, but I think that anyone with the wherewithal to try and tell sorcerers what to do is going to not want them summoning carelessly. As you said, nalak42 - elementals aren't human, and just because a Greenmaw doesn't come from a brass city of hate doesn't mean it's particularly a better idea summoning one for a babysitting job than an Erythmanus.

                              Even ghost-summoning through necromancy should probably have similar views.
                              Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 01-21-2017, 04:02 AM.

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                              • #30
                                What's the players Willpower (WP)?

                                I ask because Summon Elemental (a four hour long ritual) requires two willpower but only refunds one per cast so for each elemental he summons he will "lose" 1 temp WP, once he uses up his WP-1 he can only summon one per day since the only way for him to regain WP is a "good nights sleep" and this only once per day.

                                If his WP is 10 he can summon 3 per day for the first four days (if he try's for four a day he won't have time to eat, drink, have any kind of conversation or use the facilities) then he is down to one a day, so a max of 38 elementals or 39 if he summons two per day. At WP 5 (the default for Exalts) the max would be 34 @ both two and three per day.

                                This also assumes he doesn't mess up the binding roll in witch case he will not get the WP for successfully casting a spell and "lose" three elementals ( 1.the one he failed to bind, 2. the next one he would have summoned and 3. the one after that since he would have gotten a 1 WP refund for a successful binding on 2). if he does this during the "one summoning per day" period he "loses" three days as well (one for the failed binding and another two waiting to regain WP)

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