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  • #61
    Originally posted by Stephen Lea Sheppard View Post
    Crow the Boy is a sample Night Caste (I think?)
    Eclipse, actually. Her shtick was that she managed to successfully weld a lot of disparate gangs into a much less hostile community of youth support.

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    • #62
      Right. I wasn't sure whether she was Night or Eclipse.

      (This pretty much confirms that Crow the Boy isn't the sample Eclipse I used in Tomb of Dreams.)

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Stephen Lea Sheppard View Post
        Hey, "An artist got cheeky and drew something they weren't asked to draw" is how we got Jean Grey dead for a decade.
        Come again? I know that the artist taking liberties with the writer's intent is how Hank Pym ended up The Wife Beater, but I wasn't aware of this one.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Mockery View Post

          Come again? I know that the artist taking liberties with the writer's intent is how Hank Pym ended up The Wife Beater, but I wasn't aware of this one.
          Chris Clairemont wrote Jean Grey going Dark Phoenix and eating a star, but hadn't intended it to be one with an inhabited world. When drawing the issue, John Byrne inserted a frame of a doomed alien race looking up at their star as it died.

          (There's narration acknowledging this, but that's because Marvel books at the time followed a process where the writer would write an outline, and the artist would draw the issue, and then the writer would go back and write the specific dialogue and narration around what the artist drew.)

          Later on, at the conclusion of the Dark Phoenix Saga, Clairmont originally intended for Jean to survive, but editorial went "Uh, no, she killed an inhabited world and genocided a whole civilization. She's gotta die; we're not having Hitler on our X-Men."

          Much later, they came up with the retcon: The Phoenix who we saw during the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix arcs wasn't actually Jean Grey; it was a cosmic entity that took her form and memories and sent her body into suspended animation. That's what died at the end of the Dark Phoenix saga. The actual Jean Grey isn't culpable for the death of a whole civilization, and we can bring her back by having the Avengers and Fantastic Four find the cosmic cocoon where the real Jean is still in stasis.

          And then even later the Phoenix Force comes back and Jean temporarily merges with it and gets its memories of its time pretending to be her, so stuff it did as her can remain part of her biography and be referenced as stuff she remembers doing, all without her ever being culpable for its deeds.

          Comics, everybody!

          (I highly recommend the podcast Jay and Miles X-Plain the X-Men, by the way.)
          Last edited by Stephen Lea Sheppard; 03-06-2017, 08:29 PM.

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          • #65
            So she was a sample solar, with a write up to use on the idea of could be an ally, an enemy, or just a local flourish to make the world seem larger than just the players. And in one of the later books this character was specifically drawn as being slain in another character's backstory, because a few people who worked on the line wanted her dead and either one of them was the artist (or dealt with the artist).

            That's just weird, and I feel like I'm missing a detail to explain the dislike, but whatever thanks for answering.

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            • #66
              It's probably not so much that the artist disliked the character as the artist thought "Oh, hey, this would be cooler if I drew a specific Solar instead of a generic Solar."

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Stephen Lea Sheppard View Post

                Chris Clairemont wrote Jean Grey going Dark Phoenix and eating a star, but hadn't intended it to be one with an inhabited world. When drawing the issue, John Byrne inserted a frame of a doomed alien race looking up at their star as it died.

                (There's narration acknowledging this, but that's because Marvel books at the time followed a process where the writer would write an outline, and the artist would draw the issue, and then the writer would go back and write the specific dialogue and narration around what the artist drew.)

                Later on, at the conclusion of the Dark Phoenix Saga, Clairmont originally intended for Jean to survive, but editorial went "Uh, no, she killed an inhabited world and genocided a whole civilization. She's gotta die; we're not having Hitler on our X-Men."

                Much later, they came up with the retcon: The Phoenix who we saw during the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix arcs wasn't actually Jean Grey; it was a cosmic entity that took her form and memories and sent her body into suspended animation. That's what died at the end of the Dark Phoenix saga. The actual Jean Grey isn't culpable for the death of a whole civilization, and we can bring her back by having the Avengers and Fantastic Four find the cosmic cocoon where the real Jean is still in stasis.

                And then even later the Phoenix Force comes back and Jean temporarily merges with it and gets its memories of its time pretending to be her, so stuff it did as her can remain part of her biography and be referenced as stuff she remembers doing, all without her ever being culpable for its deeds.

                Comics, everybody!

                (I highly recommend the podcast Jay and Miles X-Plain the X-Men, by the way.)

                Reminds me of DC's Parallax mess.


                Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
                  Reminds me of DC's Parallax mess.
                  That sort of thing is fairly endemic to long-running serial media. Hence "Comics, everybody!"

                  (But see also: The Two Kuklas.)
                  Last edited by Stephen Lea Sheppard; 03-06-2017, 10:00 PM.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Stephen Lea Sheppard View Post
                    It's probably not so much that the artist disliked the character as the artist thought "Oh, hey, this would be cooler if I drew a specific Solar instead of a generic Solar."
                    Yeah, it's likely the Melissa Uran (she's who drew the picture of Roseblack killing the Urchin- Who-Is-Not-Crow in Aspect Book: Wood) decided to reference Crow in her drawing just as a flourish rather than because she was told to do so. In fact, I am now having a recollection of asking her about this at the time, back when she was still posting here, and I believe she said something to that effect, that she liked the way Crow the Boy looked and decided to use her as reference for the picture, but it's been so long the exact details escape me.

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                    • #70
                      Oh, man, I'd forgotten that was Mel.

                      Yeah. Mel has no problem with Crow; she just liked the way she looked. But this has resulted in Crow being sort-of semicanonically dead, which is obviously Not Optimal, and was certainly not the intent.

                      (I'd "fix" this by putting a statted Crow in a future book with a custom fake-my-own-death Charm, but down that road lies Jean Grey, so.)

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Eh it's a new edition. People dying in previous editions is hardly a binding thing. I mean Crow could just as easily be brought back as an exigent for some city god that took the street gangs as it's portfolio as she could a solar.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Stephen Lea Sheppard View Post
                          (I'd "fix" this by putting a statted Crow in a future book with a custom fake-my-own-death Charm, but down that road lies Jean Grey, so.)
                          Honestly, that sounds like a cool idea for a Charm regardless.

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                          • #73
                            Oh, man, I should have made Crow the sample Eclipse and put a bit in her bio about how she's out adventuring instead of leading her Nexus gangs 'cause she skipped town after faking her death to escape a Wyld Hunt.

                            (No. This would not have been a good idea. Also, Holden would have vetoed it as too cute and too much of an obscure reference, and he would have been right to.)

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Stephen Lea Sheppard View Post
                              Oh, man, I'd forgotten that was Mel.

                              Yeah. Mel has no problem with Crow; she just liked the way she looked. But this has resulted in Crow being sort-of semicanonically dead, which is obviously Not Optimal, and was certainly not the intent.

                              (I'd "fix" this by putting a statted Crow in a future book with a custom fake-my-own-death Charm, but down that road lies Jean Grey, so.)
                              Crow as a note shows up in the 2e corebook on p. 128. It's not a great picture of her I htink (I really like the style of her original piece in CB: Eclipse) but I think that it's always safe to bet that character stories get reset in edition change-overs.

                              And stuff.


                              And stuff.
                              My DeviantArt Page // My tumblr // Craft Houserules

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                              • #75
                                Now a question about the tomb this thread is named for. (Assuming it is not the Tomb of Crow the Boy. ) Is it going to have a door mechanic like in 2E's tomb of five corners where you couldn't fully explore unless you had all the caste's because of magic that only responded to the caste marks or not?

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