Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Realm: Post-Collapse

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    ​There are scenarios in which it is possible that the Great Houses lose a lot of their strength as a result of things like many and/or prominent members of the family being lost, general loss of revenue streams that a canny new empress can take advantage of to reel them in, or a major reorganisation of the Realm. That the extended families of Exalted were cohesive political entities in the first place was apparently mostly a result of the policies of the Scarlet Empress; if one was to do something like stop distributing privileges and stipends according to those family groupings, that could go a certain way towards diffusing the large family blocs.
    An astute, post-Empress ruler of the Realm may see de-emphasizing the Houses as a way to avoid revolution. I certainly would. The question then becomes what replaces the Houses as the primary political organizing principle, and how does one encourage "appropriate" breeding that leads to properly indoctrinated DB children.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Totentanz View Post
      The question then becomes what replaces the Houses as the primary political organizing principle
      I'm wondering about reverting to a system more like the Shogunate, based on appointments of provincial military governors, and wondering what a new ruler could do to avoid the pitfall that the actual Shogunate experienced in which the regional governors have direct control of their territories and keep using that to defy the central authority.

      ​Possibly it would be an impetus for further imperial conquest, both as a project to direct the energies of the Exalted at, and a means of acquiring territory in which to place governors who have, over the course of a campaign, demonstrated and cultivated loyalty to the regime. The Shogunate, to my reckoning, was a circumstance in which already existing regional authorities simply laid claim to the territory they were already institutionalised in, so there wouldn't have really been the opportunity for a unifying operation once the Solars were finished off.


      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

        I'm wondering about reverting to a system more like the Shogunate, based on appointments of provincial military governors, and wondering what a new ruler could do to avoid the pitfall that the actual Shogunate experienced in which the regional governors have direct control of their territories and keep using that to defy the central authority.

        ​Possibly it would be an impetus for further imperial conquest, both as a project to direct the energies of the Exalted at, and a means of acquiring territory in which to place governors who have, over the course of a campaign, demonstrated and cultivated loyalty to the regime. The Shogunate, to my reckoning, was a circumstance in which already existing regional authorities simply laid claim to the territory they were already institutionalised in, so there wouldn't have really been the opportunity for a unifying operation once the Solars were finished off.

        I always imagined that by the time the Usurpation came around, almost all of the actual governance of Creation was done by the Blood of the Dragon. After the Usurpation and the somewhat cataclysmic aftermath, the Dragon-Blooded would just continue the existing structure, and the political struggle would be in unifying those same provinces into a central government.

        The political struggle of course gives way to sporadic cold and hot wars, which increase in severity and duration as the Shogunate itself wears on.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Totentanz View Post


          I always imagined that by the time the Usurpation came around, almost all of the actual governance of Creation was done by the Blood of the Dragon. After the Usurpation and the somewhat cataclysmic aftermath, the Dragon-Blooded would just continue the existing structure, and the political struggle would be in unifying those same provinces into a central government.
          ​That's similar to mine. I... won't go into too much detail on the exact model I have, because honestly, I can bore even myself with it sometimes.

          ​But yes, in the absence of organising Dragon Blooded into large aristocratic blocs and drawing them into elaborate domestic intrigues, shaping them into a force of adventurers and planters might be an interesting direction for a game to take.

          ​Something with hints of Toyotami Hideyoshi's plans for Korea and China.

          ​Now I'm considering an alternative where the course of conflict itself actually breaks down the cohesion of the Great House as a political institution. After all, Great Houses were created around the fact that the Empress would dole out certain privileges to the House as a unit, rather than to individuals. I would imagine such a thing as maintaining a certain momentum in the absence of such incentives, but would find it plausible for loyalties to drift and meld together if the conflict should take certain turns. A world where great-grandmother Mnemon having ultimate authority over your portion of the family stipend and where the usual system of being lodged for a period after school with a parent's sibling or cousin can't be managed so consistently might have the idea of House Mnemon gradually drift away, and other loyalties and polities can start to form.

          ​After that one can have a Realm in which the new leadership holds to a vision in which big extended families aren't really given the infrastructure to exist as major political entities, and acquisition of wealth and acquiring position owes more to political appointments.

          ​Possibly depending on how many Dragon Blooded still live, and what the assessment of the threats is; part of my image of the Empress incentivizing the Great House structure was as a way to incentivize Dragon Blooded collectivizing in a manner that would help rejuvenate their numbers.

          ​I've also got this image where the basis of the stipends and the exclusive privileges regarding satrapy tax farming emerged from an impromptu system of consolidating and repaying debts incurred from the Dragon Blooded who first supported her rule investing their assets to provide the necessary funds to really build the institutions that formed the Realm, and that the policy of gradually placing those Houses under the control of her own descendants was an attempt to reign in a behemoth that she had created and could not effectively slay. Hence, one might get a very different system out of a generation of up and coming Exalted who haven't really been brought up in an arrangement where the world owes them something, and the form of their initial support for a new ruler might not be so reciprocal.

          ​After all, the Scarlet Empress attained that position initially on the force of being in possession of the big gun that saved the world; everything to do with having actual supporters and a revenue stream would have had to come later, and probably have been very unusual. I don't find it hard to imagine that somebody who needs to win the Realm by actually fighting people over it, with the support of other people, might come in with different assumptions.

          ​Heh, now I'm imagining an alternative version of The Sword in the Stone in which, having become king via divine providence, Wart really does want to fulfil people's expectations of a monarch restoring justice and prosperity to the realm, but needs to get past the fact that having been a stable boy yesterday means that he has absolutely no source of revenue with which to pay for things like clerks or magistrates, and thus doesn't even have the infrastructure to collect taxes, so the first period of his reign consists of conferring with Merlin over exactly which nobles are best to allow to provide some of their own wealth as start up funds (which they're all clamouring to do, since everybody wants to get a stake in the new regime). Maybe even considering whether or not it would be better to secure a loan from some foreign bankers.

          "None of them are offering their support in terms of an actual loan that I would need to repay, right?"
          ​"No; in these uncertain times, that would be overstepping too much in a way that would prompt an immediate response from the other barons."
          ​"Would it be possible to just accept any money and then... publically express it as a charitable donation that doesn't carry any need for repayment or favours?"
          ​"Possible, but risky; you might drive somebody into a corner that would make them look unpious to back out of, but the resentment that might cause could create complications down the line."
          ​"Hmm... remind me again how much your living tea set could get if it was put up as, what did you call it, colloquial?"
          "Collateral."

          ​(I doubt this kind of scenario comes up, but I really would like to read The Once and Future King at some point)


          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

            ​That's similar to mine. I... won't go into too much detail on the exact model I have, because honestly, I can bore even myself with it sometimes.

            ​But yes, in the absence of organising Dragon Blooded into large aristocratic blocs and drawing them into elaborate domestic intrigues, shaping them into a force of adventurers and planters might be an interesting direction for a game to take.

            ​Something with hints of Toyotami Hideyoshi's plans for Korea and China.

            ​Now I'm considering an alternative where the course of conflict itself actually breaks down the cohesion of the Great House as a political institution. After all, Great Houses were created around the fact that the Empress would dole out certain privileges to the House as a unit, rather than to individuals. I would imagine such a thing as maintaining a certain momentum in the absence of such incentives, but would find it plausible for loyalties to drift and meld together if the conflict should take certain turns. A world where great-grandmother Mnemon having ultimate authority over your portion of the family stipend and where the usual system of being lodged for a period after school with a parent's sibling or cousin can't be managed so consistently might have the idea of House Mnemon gradually drift away, and other loyalties and polities can start to form.

            ​After that one can have a Realm in which the new leadership holds to a vision in which big extended families aren't really given the infrastructure to exist as major political entities, and acquisition of wealth and acquiring position owes more to political appointments.

            ​Possibly depending on how many Dragon Blooded still live, and what the assessment of the threats is; part of my image of the Empress incentivizing the Great House structure was as a way to incentivize Dragon Blooded collectivizing in a manner that would help rejuvenate their numbers.

            ​I've also got this image where the basis of the stipends and the exclusive privileges regarding satrapy tax farming emerged from an impromptu system of consolidating and repaying debts incurred from the Dragon Blooded who first supported her rule investing their assets to provide the necessary funds to really build the institutions that formed the Realm, and that the policy of gradually placing those Houses under the control of her own descendants was an attempt to reign in a behemoth that she had created and could not effectively slay. Hence, one might get a very different system out of a generation of up and coming Exalted who haven't really been brought up in an arrangement where the world owes them something, and the form of their initial support for a new ruler might not be so reciprocal.

            ​After all, the Scarlet Empress attained that position initially on the force of being in possession of the big gun that saved the world; everything to do with having actual supporters and a revenue stream would have had to come later, and probably have been very unusual. I don't find it hard to imagine that somebody who needs to win the Realm by actually fighting people over it, with the support of other people, might come in with different assumptions.

            ​Heh, now I'm imagining an alternative version of The Sword in the Stone in which, having become king via divine providence, Wart really does want to fulfil people's expectations of a monarch restoring justice and prosperity to the realm, but needs to get past the fact that having been a stable boy yesterday means that he has absolutely no source of revenue with which to pay for things like clerks or magistrates, and thus doesn't even have the infrastructure to collect taxes, so the first period of his reign consists of conferring with Merlin over exactly which nobles are best to allow to provide some of their own wealth as start up funds (which they're all clamouring to do, since everybody wants to get a stake in the new regime). Maybe even considering whether or not it would be better to secure a loan from some foreign bankers.

            "None of them are offering their support in terms of an actual loan that I would need to repay, right?"
            ​"No; in these uncertain times, that would be overstepping too much in a way that would prompt an immediate response from the other barons."
            ​"Would it be possible to just accept any money and then... publically express it as a charitable donation that doesn't carry any need for repayment or favours?"
            ​"Possible, but risky; you might drive somebody into a corner that would make them look unpious to back out of, but the resentment that might cause could create complications down the line."
            ​"Hmm... remind me again how much your living tea set could get if it was put up as, what did you call it, colloquial?"
            "Collateral."

            ​(I doubt this kind of scenario comes up, but I really would like to read The Once and Future King at some point)
            The Empress was definitely in a unique position for a new ruler. She had absolute power over life and death on the Isle, but had no mechanism of governance. It makes sense that she would begin taking consorts and doling out favors almost immediately to secure her holdings. Simply holding a gun to everyone's head just isn't an effective method of rulership.

            If Ejava, for example, were to come into power, it would be at the head of an army, with a set of political and financial backers. That coalition would almost certainly include most of House Tepet, but it would not be merely Tepet. Various Dynasts and Outcastes would have decided to back her for their own reasons along the way. She would, in effect, have a mandate to alter the structure of the Realm. There's no reason for her to favor all of House Ragara when really only a few influential members of that House backed her up.

            Actually, this is starting to sound a little like the history of Westeros, where the lords perform their own mental calculations every time a war comes around. Feuds and oaths matter, but most of the power players place their bets based on who is going to benefit them the most. After the war is over, the new King's first order of business is to redistribute lands, titles, and positions to reward his supporters, punish the opposition, but also to buy the loyalty of certain important people, regardless of their affiliation.

            It's plausible Empress Ejava would largely deconstruct the Great House system as a whole, and replace it with a straight forward system of feudal patronage, while avoiding angering certain powers. Maybe House Cathak doesn't have any official status anymore, but Cathak Cainan still gets a nice stipend from the new Imperial Treasury. After all, Ejava wants people like him to have incentive to support her, not seek to overthrow her.

            Comment

            Working...
            X